May 7, 2012
On the Edge of Unknown Territory
[The following is an excerpt from Andrew Cohen and Ken Wilber's popular "Guru & Pandit" dialogue series. --Ed.]
Andrew Cohen: It’s rare for an individual to realize that he or she is literally on the edge of unknown territory. Most human beings are born and die within a preexistent cultural context that they don’t necessarily feel is up to them to define. But at this particular time in history, for new evolutionary stages, structures, and potentials to emerge, it requires heroic individuals who are willing to bear the emotional, psychological, philosophical, and spiritual overwhelm of realizing that they have to be real pioneers. Where we’re going now is uncharted territory. More and more people at this edge are working very hard to lay down these new structures, but the truth is that there’s no panel of experts or ascended masters who have already figured this out for us. This is something we’re all working through and need to work through together, with other individuals that have that same pioneering spirit and have awakened to the conviction that this needs to happen and we’re the ones who have to do it. This adds a certain kind of weight, gravitas, and, of course, excitement and thrill to the endeavor of spiritual transformation and evolution at this particular time.
Ken Wilber: Absolutely! That’s one of the things that makes being on an evolutionary edge so “good news/bad news.” On the one hand, it’s a pioneering edge; it’s being at a place that has more perspectives than previous positions, that sees more and embraces more and understands more. But it’s also a situation where, as you say, these things haven’t been figured out; they are all being tested as we go along. People are still trying to work into what the exact meaning is of a truly evolutionary enlightenment, a truly integral enlightenment. And there’s no book that gives us the final answer. It’s all being done right now in the hearts and minds of those individuals who are treading the path. That’s where the book is being written. And that also means that it can be very, very hard on individuals who are moving along this new path. And, as you say, there is no final tribunal, no court of judges or enlightened masters that have gone down this path before. We’re all making it up as we go along, but we’re grounded in our understanding, in our growth, in our inner development and realization.
The Guru & Pandit: Virtual Series
In each issue of EnlightenNext magazine, the dialogues between spiritual teacher Andrew Cohen (the Guru) and integral philosopher Ken Wilber (the Pandit) delivered mind-expanding investigations that consistently broke new ground. Now we’re pleased to announce that the Guru and the Pandit are back: In partnership with Integral Life, we’ll be hosting four new dialogues between Cohen and Wilber in 2012—live and online, as a series of audio conversations broadcast for free to thousands of listeners worldwide. Learn more and register »
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Andrew Cohen is a spiritual teacher, cultural visionary, founder of EnlightenNext, and the author of 
A boy in his early teens was visiting an old woman in an old folks home. “So what are you doing young man ” : she said. “Not much”: he replied.
She looked him in the eye: ” If you are not living on the edge, you are taking up too much space”.
The journey for most of us may be in our hearts and minds, as Ken Wilber said.
Had you considered that, for some, it may also be in their bodies and even at a cellular level and that there have already been pioneers way ahead of of you both, but you just don’t know about it?
Hi vikas, The point becomes clearer if you recognize that the Body IS the Heart and Mind, because it is part of the overall vehicle of consciousness. Neither Ken or Andrew have missed this point, I guarantee it.
Nada, Philosophically I guess I’m classified as an Idealist, meaning I believe mind (or Mind) is ultimate reality. I now believe our reality is God’s dream, and that we are free to wake up within that dream to different levels of lucidity, much like the art of lucid dreaming within our own dreams.
Based on that belief the body and heart are but reflections of the same Mind within Mind’s projection (or what one of the German Idealists called the “slumbering”), just different forms of same Mind, or the varied content of the same “stuff” (ultimate stuff, Mind).
Several posts here suggest we can tap into Mind directly. I agree. Not necessarily with great skill (although perhaps some can) but more than we realize. I do believe we are given nudgings and information from another “side.” But then that is probably actually deep within this side. So, as you say (or imply), it is all non-dual something or someone or other.
Darrell
Interesting concept there, which I associate with different “gifts.” Yea, philosophical authors (of which I belong, although as yet unsuccesful and unknown) are mouth-pieces. Other gifts may translate and transform in other ways.
When I was thinking about spiritual principles and other characteristics that might help form an optimal communty (my fictional town of Allsville, in my book Allsville Emerging, http://www.allsvilleemerging.com) my mind kept coming up with things in fives (the number five). I was mentally focusing on the concept of “growing virtue” in Allsville. “Virtue” and “5″ was on my mind, obsessively. One day I finally looked up the word “virtue” in a fairly big dictionary. One of the sub-definitions listed the “Virtues” as one of 9 ranks of angels described by (I think) Paul from the Bible (?). Need I say what rank number the Virtues occupied according to that classification? You got it — FIVE. Just today I posted my 10 commandments of collective living at Integral Life. The 10 was based on the 5 core virtues (also expressed in the book as 5 spiritual principles) which were in the abstract, general form above and a more concrete, specific form below, totalling 10. I woke up in the middle of the night with the concept of making a 10 commandments for collective living, and much of the content already seemed there on my mind, and was consistent with the 5 spiritual principles. More like watching my mind think than thinking per se.
Don’t know if your “other gifts” implication had in mind gifts or nudgings from the other side (as Utah did below) but interesting to consider that possibility also.
Some of the transformative energy might be channeled in all sorts of ways onto this side/dimension through people who, as you maintained, may have been way, way, way, ahead of us recognized or aspiring authors.
Thanks for the inspiring thoughts,
Darrell
Thanks Vickas, I know what you mean. I have witnessed one of the ones you speak of.
Hi Utah
Of whom do you speak?
Sri Aurobindo and his partner The Mother were hewing a path through the physical many many years ago (up to 80 years at least) and you can read of The Mother’s discoveries at the level of the cellular consciousness in The Agenda. Sri Aurobindo wrote that ‘man is a transitional being’ and they foresaw that the evolutionary direction was for a being embodying a consciousness beyond mind – supramental – of which they had realisation but were unable to bring down into manifestation at a physical level. The key to such a being’s physical manifestation lay in the cells.
The mastery of the mind and the heart is only the beginning of such a path
This is also called physical Ascension… enlightening the body, developing from carbon based bodies into crystal based ones, developing from 2 (3) basic strains of DNA to having 12 basic stains of DNA and all expansions of abilities that come along with it, refining the senses etc. … a quite different physicality all together. Yes and all what we have ever been and know is recorded in our cellular memory. The one who had accomplished the above (and much more) I saw last in 2010. She came and went ahead so that this possibility was added to the gene pool on Earth so that all that are willing have the possibility to follow. This is what others did too, e.g. Christ’s ‘job’ was to add to the gene pool on Earth the possibility of embodying higher consciousness… it was kind of the laying of the ground for Now …
Still each of us, if we make steps forward for us is it pioneer work because we never accomplished it before. And it is still great but then and when it’s healthy to keep the perspective that we are not the first but nevertheless our stepping forward has a great input on the whole. Tia sometimes brought the picture of the clockwork mechanism saying that all of us are important in the big picture and that it actually doesn’t matter which ‘size’/'stage’ we are but without any of us it won’t work … inter dimensional Co-creation … ?
“Making it up as we go along” and “being grounded” can feel almost
schizophrenic, combining a very deep Knowing with an equally real sense of Not Knowing. Just the fact that it’s possible, that we’re doing it, is exciting beyond words.
Liked the way you combined both making it up and being grounded. How it’s a balancing act between the two.
I had the same thought-association regarding “we are making this stuff up as we go along” (see my comment below). But I didn’t think about how we must also find some sort of groundedness at the same time.
Creativity is like the hot wire. Groundedness is … , well, of course, the ground wire.
Nice,
Darrell
Is there really an edge that separates this from another territory? Is it not all the one territory, if you like, which gets fabricated into two with an edge? Can a book or set f guidelines ever create conditions making it understandable? Is that not an oxymoron?
From my perspective we don’t this alone! Beings/Energies of the non-physical realms are simultaneously … in co-creation … reacting to our trials and errors and successes … worked since long and still do on this particular evolutionary step. However some of them are experts and have been orchestrating and leading other similar evolutionary steps of other cultures than Earths. Without the dedicated work of the Divine intervention we would be nowhere near where we are now! But this is an universe of Free will and therefore you are right in saying that it is up to us take the chance and claim our birthright. Simultaneously we should honor the ones who have woken us so that we may remember …
Utah, I just finished a post at Integral Life that leaned the same sort of direction you seemed to be leaning in your comment. If we can use the concept “energies” loosely enough to include spiritual entitities/beings (which I do, often) then “truth” is not so much an exact marker of something, as it is a kind of “windsock” that indicates a direction (or format) of flow (energy or spirit). Truth as windsock, instead of truth as marker.
Thanks for brining the spirit dimension into this discussion. I do see plenty of evidence of both spiritual messages and spiritual messengers in my dreams. I agree that we are being informed from beyond (or a different dimension, that we tend to call “spiritual”). Still, its up to us as to how much we listen to the messages and how much we tune them out.
Darrell
It’s the same and not the same; it can be new and not new at all — depends how you interprete it. You are free to enjoy freedom.
The whole image or “gestalt” of reality/existence includes figure and ground, and we can shift to and from figure and ground? Or we can somehow paradoxically integrate the two into one big whole/gestalt? Sounds so strange, and yet so right to me.
Thanks for the Confuscious-like or riddle-like comment. Teased me just right.
Darrell
Dear Mr. Cohen:
We already are that Self Realized being. What is there to know.?
What is the unknown territory?
The unknown territory is to bring that realised consciousness into earth’s daily life and manifest it there in life and action and thereby transform it.
We really are just making this up as we go along. While the final evolutionary destination will probably be the same no matter what we make up along the way, the roughness/suffering and the longness of the journey will probably depend largely on what we make up together.
Here is an excerpt from the intro of my book, Allsville Emerging (www.allsvilleemerging.com). This passage reflects much of the same sentiment you shared in your missive, but with some amber and green stage “flavors” thrown in for good measure:
…I recalled the Bible story of Noah’s ark. Not
only was Noah told to build an ark, he was given the exact
dimensions. Creating a new social model is like a modern
version of the ark. Without the right dimensions, or characteristics,
the model may not “float.” If built properly, the new
“ark” will be able to rise above the flood of cultural practices
that currently interfere with meeting true human needs.
There is one significant difference between the old and
the new story. Noah was one person, an individual leader.
But the signs indicate that today’s “Noah” is a collective.
Successful adaptation—an effective riding out of the flood—
will require a group effort this time around.
The world has been made “small” by global forms of
trade, communication, and transportation, and by a worldwide
swell of socially like-minded people, whom sociologist/
author, Paul H. Ray, and his wife, Sherry Ruth Anderson, call
“Cultural Creatives” in their book, The Cultural Creatives.
Because the current changes require a much broader
scope of action that is performed by a collective, getting
the instructions right is more challenging than it was during
the first ark saga. At that time, God only needed to relay
the instructions to one person. In the current version of the
ark, however, the directions need to be varied, in order to accommodate
the learning styles, mind sets, and aptitudes of a
large number of recipients. This time around, there seems to
be a need for many messengers carrying different interpretations
of the directions.
(end excerpt)
Thanks Andrew and Ken for your inspirational message about the cutting edge.
Darrell
I ‘m in full agreement with the view that the new
“ark” should be able to rise above the flood of cultural practices. And it should be collective endeavor of messengers carrying different interpretations of all directions.
The great challenge of an evolutionary/integral perspective is that it doesn’t allow for anything to be left out, nor can there be any immovable, relative “concretizing” of theory or structure; one must be willing beyond will to “ride the wave” naked with the Kosmic stream, and this is an enormous responsibility, not for the faint of heart or the ego-maniac.
But that doesn’t mean we don’t have guidance. Exemplars of the evolutionary/integral perspective are emerging everywhere. Andrew and Ken are prime examples, not easily dismissed by those with the Heart and Mind to see, meaning; those who have actually contacted and developed the very beginning of their higher potentials with humility and fortitude will find themselves incapable of turning away from the implications of such a powerful perspective.
We are blessed to be alive now, at the birth of this new human perspective, with the conscious knowledge we have available and with the collective wisdom seeing through the old to the ever emerging new.
Strip yourself clean and join in…
Light and Love to All
I’m commenting on Andrew and Ken’s May 21 dialogue titled “A New Moral Context
I’m puzzled. On the one hand, Andrew, you say that the spiritual path “…never could have been a personal matter…” and “…that our own development has always only been for the sake of the evolution of consciousness itself…” But then, Ken, your comment makes it sound as though our choices are very much a personal matter and that they can be right or “wrong.”
To me, these seemingly contradictory comments raise the issue of whether or not any of us has something we can call a “personal” authentic self or a soul which has continuity before birth and after death. Would either of you wish to comment?
Dear Master Andrew,
From the bottom of my heart I want to thank The Absolute, becauset you are here to teach us the way to be free. I´m working happy to deliver the message with all my friends, relatives, and who ever come across my way.
From Mexico, with all my love and admiration.
I am so very totally overwhelmed with today’s dialogue excerpt between Cohen and Wilber.
I am now experiencing communion with Spirit but it is/or and it is almost equal parts of struggle and a sense of overwhelming fulfillment.
Now you guys go and lay a responsibility trip on me for future generations.
I’m not getting any younger and now?
But, I think you are both fantastic. I have no money (part of my deal with Spirit is a simple lifestyle) but I am so thankful that you offer freebies.
Love,
Jean
the book is already written
Namasteh divine bros n sistrs
Although Andrew and ken are doing the work of maha atmas(great souls), it still seems like the blind leading the blind.
To succeed in our spiritual endeavours,we have to know very clearly the aim and objective of our efforts.
It is not a task of a human being to be a stick for the blind. Only the supreme soul, the father of us all souls can perform this task. His ways and means of doing this are just as unique as he is.
Regards
Harish
AS I READ ABOUT UR (ANDREW COHEN) PRONOUNCEMENT RE OUR ROLE IN OUR LIVES – I FIND MYSELF WONDERING HOW IT IS THAT YOU SEE THE ROLE OF OUR BODIES – IN OUR SEARCH FOR OUR OWN INTEGRATION AND WHOLENESS AS A PERSON – WHETHER YOU RECOGNIZE THE EVER-ACTIVE ROLE OF OUR BODIES IN OUR IDENITIES, OUR INTEGRITY, OUR CONSCIOUSNESS – AND OUR AUTHENTICITY AS A WHOLE INTEGRATED EMBODIED PERSON?
JOHN VASCONCELLOS
CALIFORNIA STATE SENATOR (retired – not yet entirely) -
38 YEARS REPRSENTING THE HEART OF SILICON VALLEY
CO-FOUNDER OF ‘THE POLITICS OF TRUST’