February 9, 2012
Living In An Infinite Universe
Last week I gave a talk at Alex and Allyson Grey’s Chapel of Sacred Mirrors (CoSM) in upstate New York. I based the talk on an interesting story that I had heard on NPR earlier that morning while I was brushing my teeth about some new scientific discoveries that support the surprising hypothesis that apparently the material universe is infinite. Included here is an audio of the NPR segment, followed by an excerpt from my talk (a rough transcript). Enjoy!
Here’s the 3-minute segment, “Strange Universe,” hosted by Astronomy magazine columnist Bob Berman:
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My Talk at the Chapel of Sacred Mirrors, January 29th, 2012
I heard something very interesting on NPR this morning about a new study by scientists at the Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory which mapped nearly 900,000 galaxies and gave us the best ever view of the large scale structure of the cosmos. According the show’s host, Bob Berman, the study affirms something that cosmologists are only recently starting to accept as fact: the universe isn’t finite as it was long thought to be, but infinite. The universe is infinite in its expanse and also, simultaneously, the material contents of the cosmos are infinite. Berman suggested that this is a very challenging concept for scientists and the general public to accept, because the implications of living in an infinite universe are very profound for all of us.
In traditional Eastern mysticism, for example, it has been said that the unborn, uncreated, unmanifest empty void out of which the entire material cosmos emerged is infinite. It has no beginning and no end. It is what the Buddha called the Unborn. It is an Absolute dimension of reality that is both birthless and deathless. The material universe, on the other hand, is considered to be finite. Even though it is vast in its expanse, it is ultimately relative, because it has a beginning and an end. It was created. So from this perspective, we could say that what mystics refer to as the Absolute or nonrelative domain of reality is infinite, while the creative process, which includes all of manifestation, is finite.
But if what these cosmologists are discovering is true, we need to rethink this traditional mystical assumption. If the evolutionary process and everything contained within it are part of an infinite unfolding as they’re finding—if it’s not merely inconceivably vast but it’s literally infinite—then we don’t have to close our eyes or even transcend the mind, time, body, and universe in order to discover that which is infinite. All we have to do is behold the universe that we are already an inherent part of. Just beginning to contemplate the fact that we are inherently part of a process that’s infinite opens the eye of the philosopher in all of us. If you wed this with the ultimate mystical truth about the nature of reality, that there is only One and not two,, then what will become apparent to you is that you are not separate from a process that is literally infinite.
Think about this for a moment. If you don’t see yourself and your own existence as being in any way separate from the process that gave rise to you, then that means that you are infinite—the infinite is who and what you already are. From this point of view, you don’t necessarily have to close your eyes and transcend your awareness of the material world outside you—or even of the cognitive process inside you—in order to awaken to the infinite nature of existence.
Usually, for human beings to be able to experience to the infinite nature of existence, we have to somehow transcend the mind, transcend time, transcend the world. We need to transcend our awareness of the entire created universe in order to experience that which has no beginning and no end. But given these new discoveries about the infinite nature of the material universe, maybe we don’t need to do this. Maybe it’s just a matter of reeducation. For example, what would it be like if we were introduced to this marvelous new scientific discovery that the universe is infinite at an early age? When I was a kid, I used to imagine what existed before the universe was born and contemplate where everything came from. This kind of thought experiment is pretty common for children of a certain age. But now with this new information, we don’t even have to do that exercise. If the creative process itself is infinite, then you don’t even have to think of where it all came from to get in touch with that sense of awe and mystery that comes from contemplating the infinite. The process that we are an inherent part of is already infinite, so all we need to do is think about that.
What makes all of this even more interesting, is that something profound and miraculous seems to be happening within the creative process. This material universe that we’re all part of seems to be going somewhere. It’s evolving and developing. We’re evolving and developing. What does this mean? It means that higher levels of existence, higher levels of being, higher levels of complexity are continually emerging in the creative process. From light to energy to matter to life to mind to culture, the universe is constantly evolving and developing. The universe is not a static, dead, place where nothing is happening. It’s inherently creative. And that means that new and extraordinary things are happening all the time.
So in light of all this, I think that we need to embrace a new form of evolutionary mysticism. Traditionally mysticism, as far as I understand it, has two fundamental steps. The first step is the inquiry into the ultimate nature of reality. We need to catalyze a burning inquiry into the ultimate nature of existence. If this inquiry is going to be fruitful, it has to be deadly serious. You have to get to the point where you actually feel that your sense of well-being and self confidence literally depends upon finding out the answer. This is something that most people don’t do, because they’re distracted by other things. They just don’t care enough about the truth to get to the Absolute bottom of the inquiry. But if you’re deadly serious and you’re lucky enough to find the answer—and you have to be a very lucky person to find the answer—the result will be a very unique kind of conviction that I call “spiritual self-confidence.” It is a kind of Absolute philosophical and spiritual certainty, which can often be seen as a bit dubious—even fanatical—to modern and especially postmodern sensibilities. But it is deeply liberating.
So if you stay with it long enough to find the answer, the gift will be a rare degree of spiritual self-confidence and certainty. Then the next step is to aspire to make your life an expression of what you’ve realized and recognized the truth to be. And that’s the much harder part. The goal is to actualize this profound degree of spiritual and philosophical certainty in and through the life that you live.
So if we take these new scientific discoveries and apply them to the first insight, we can say that the ultimate truth about the nature of reality is that the material universe is infinite. This is the first step in embracing an evolutionary mysticism. So then the second step is to answer the all important question: is our relationship to existence also infinite? I’m not asking if we’ve had moments when we’ve experienced that which is infinite. That’s one thing. I’m asking if our relationship to existence itself is infinite. Which is something altogether different. What does that really mean? It means inwardly we are ceaselessly reaching towards a better and better future—a future whose furthest boundaries are ever-accelerating towards infinity. I’m suggesting here that there is a way to embrace our own experience of life and embodied consciousness that would manifest and demonstrate the aspiration to express the infinite potential of who and what we are in the way that we live. That would involve not just a passive experience of illumination of the infinite, but it would also require us to manifest a very active, conscious, and deliberate engagement with the life process that is an expression of the infinite nature of our own identity.
In order for that to be the case, one would have to be profoundly awake to the infinite nature of the cosmic process that’s making it possible for us to have the experience that we’re having right now. It would require that we have at least some access to that kind of knowledge more or less on a daily basis. Otherwise you won’t be able to do it. Most of us don’t have consistent access to that kind of depth of insight because we’re so distracted by other things, and our culture has far from embraced these kind of non-relative truths and perspectives about reality.
To become an enlightened person at this time in history, we need to embrace a relationship to reality that’s limitless and then deliberately engage with the truth that evolution is a process that’s going somewhere. I believe that’s what the spiritual path is in this day and age. It’s very potent, it’s very powerful, it’s very significant, and it’s very meaningful. And I can guarantee you, that when you begin to embrace the truth of evolution at the deepest level of your own self, you will discover a kind of freedom and an inspiration to participate in life that is inherently liberating and deeply empowering.
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Andrew Cohen is a spiritual teacher, cultural visionary, founder of EnlightenNext, and the author of 
The material Universe must be finate otherwise it would not be 14 billion years old. Infinate means “no begining and no end”. Energy is Infinite In it’s purest form because it does not die but only changes into different forms of energy “depending on it’s vibrational frequency” when it reacts with the physical or causal world. Spiritual energy [ the purest form of energy ] is eternal or Infinate. It is the begining and the end of all other forms of energy, as everything returns to spiritual energy. “We” are made up of the same energy as the universe including spiritual energy.The microcosm “us” and the macrocosm “the universe” We are also made of the same chemicals as the universe. When we die our material bodies decompose and turn to dust as the material universe will in billions of years time.Everything that is in motion and made up of matter will die and wear away to nothing because of friction ” wear and tear on material objects”
All energy “including our energy” lives on in another form and in another dimension when our physical form dies. Matter is just slowed down energy. All matter and energy comes from spiritual energy and goes back to spiritual energy when evolution completes a full circle and returns back to the source to be reborn again.
The three faces of God. Brahma Vishna and Shiva. The Creator The Preserver and the Destroyer.
Yes the infinity of life as it is, is truly breathtaking. Form is emptiness and all that. By the sheer beauty that something came into existence 14 billion years ago does not negate the infinite nature and dimension of our actual universe at all. As a never ending constantly new expression, life, matter and love keeps overlying itself with itself. Consciousness being the very essence and parameters of what constitutes itself, knowing itself to be the limitless Self that we all are. Our universe is not a still limitless expanse but an eternal movement of ever new infinity, gross matter and form and all. Time keeps no prisoners. Free then, like the wind, ever new. This was hinted at by Huang Po when he said:
When all the Buddhas manifest themselves in the world, they proclaim nothing but the One Mind. Thus, Gautama Buddha silently transmitted to Mahakashypa the doctrine that the One Mind, which is the substance of all things, is co-extensive with the Void and fills the entire world of phenomena. This is called the Law of All the Buddhas. Discuss it as you may, how can you even hope to approach the truth through words? Nor can it be perceived either subjectively or objectively. So full understanding can come to you only through an inexpressible mystery. The approach to it is called the Gateway of the Stillness beyond all Activity. If you wish to understand, know that a sudden comprehension comes when the mind has been purged of all the clutter of conceptual and discriminatory thought-activity.
So those who seek the Way must enter it with the suddeness of a knife-thrust. Full understanding of this must come before they can enter.
I think that if we could hear scientists using the word “unknowable”, as Bob Berman did in the recorded conversation, there would be a great transformation in culture, because suddenly, all who are identified with scientific materialism would have to confront what “mystery” truly means. And while many spiritual sophisticates can accept scientific findings as being true as far as what they can show us, most scientists don’t, and can’t, accept spiritual truths as illuminated by all who’ve actualized *Infinite Oneness* in and as themselves. If an “Infinite Universe” could be generally accepted, scientists of all kinds would be forced to undo the “extreme dichotomy” of their beliefs about the nature of Reality, and accept “Unknowable Mystery.”
As Andrew pointed out, that kind of shift instantly creates a whole new trajectory for human consciousness and development, and reinvigorates the direct findings of the Nondual traditions, which have always stated that the INFINITE AND THE FINITE ARE NOT-TWO! The Absolute and the Relative, the Divine and the Human are Not-two, but ONE. And Infinity can only be ONE creative/destructive process; Infinite Oneness meaning, in the strict sense, that there are no holes or gaps, no randomness or accidents of nature. And that further conveys that there is INFINITE PURPOSE AND MEANING TO IT ALL! ; that there IS a telos or directionality, involution and evolution, and the trajectory towards WHOLENESS can no longer be denied…
Why would we want to continue to turn away from the responsibility of the process, since we are the conscious co-creators of that process? How could we continue to ignore the yearning in our souls that is its reaching for Infinite Oneness? Why would we want to deny that which is entirely what we already are? Why set up illusory boundaries of separation and false protectionism against a process that is already us? What does it take to rid ourselves of the fear and fighting against our True Nature?
Follow Andrew’s teaching and find out!
Dear Andrew, you ask :
“Maybe it’s just a matter of reeducation. For example, what would it be like if we were introduced to this marvelous new scientific discovery that the universe is infinite at an early age?”
well, it is what happened to me. I was introduced to this contemplation of the infinity of the universe at roughly age 15.
It is what scientists and mathematicians do almost from childhood, to be educated to think about the infinite, about whether systems are close or open, finite or infinite. Maybe I am a black sheep, but despite all those years precisely contemplating this issue, you didn’t consider me enlightened, and I still feel I have something “else” to discover.
As a scientist, I would say that the dialogue between Spirituality and Science is just starting. I don’t really know which side is rejecting the other, but no spiritual teacher has ever wanted to talk to me about this question of contemplating the infinite. Maybe it is time to start ? Basically all the advances of XX th century physics were about “what to do with infinity ?” when it pops up in a calculation, or simply when you talk about thermodynamics. Is a system open or close, how does quantum physics operate in those two cases. Is the universe finite ( close) or open ? how do you treat entropy in each of those cases ? In all the open physics questions of our time we have to deal with infinities, it is indeed the main big idea as you got it with your beautiful intuition. It lead to the major breakthrough of what we call renormalization, the way to go from one scale to another, form microcosm to macro-cosmos ( another fantastic scientific contemplation which is in essence very spiritually orientated)
And then, with all this, in most part, the training of a physicist concerns the lower right quadrant ( and upper right too). We develop intuition at the level of thoughts, ideals, concepts, Intuitive Ah ! Ah !. These are objects into consciousness, not vacuity. If we stick only to this, all that we will build is flatland nothing more, as the Integral philosophy has taught us. So the main question is then : “Is there a way to truly reconcile the two quadrants ( left and right ) , with no concessions and with respect and consideration from both parts, from both parts ?the infinite of the physicists and the vacuity of the spiritual world, can we reconcile them from both perspectives, format eh spiritual contemplation and front he scientific contemplation ?
To be perfectly honest it is my only quest since I started to look for God . Deep down I know there is a way.
Andrew, maybe it is time to really start talking then , between research physicists and spiritual teachers ? Not only interviewing each other and also wait that scientists has lost all narcissism ( which will never happen in lifetime, we are so proud!) , but seriously talk, NOW . As soon as you bring the notion of the infinity, you can talk to me very creatively and there is a hope of deep reconciliation between Science and Spirit. I agree with you, the notion of Infinity is the clue.
I
Love, Catherine
I am reading the comments above and well, please Nada and others don’t attack scientists like this. It simply doesn’t help.
What I am saying will maybe be shocking for you, but the fault is on both sides if there is no reconciliation between Science and Spirit. What you say is true, that the worldview of scientists is often very narrow, very right quadrant side, very materialistic.
On the other hand scientists go for depth in this quadrant, and they are really “truth passionate”( the good ones) and honest. What they really have, is that when they are interested in something, they go for it completely in a completely driven way. Not only “readings books here or there for passing time, but really going for it with all of our being all our mind”.
Since I started my spiritual quest, ( in 2005) I have met a few spiritual groups already and interact with four teachers. To my taste, as a scientist, no dialogue has been satisfactory . Usually people consider me as a somewhat bright but remote person, very narcissistic, and who has some knowledge to give, but that is all. Spiritual teachers try to cure me of my narcissism, and my Ego problems as an intellectual. All that is true and good. But what I dream of, is a real dialog with spiritual people, a research dialog, a discovery dialog. A dialog where I can bring not only knowledge, not only a somewhat elitarian version of the intellectual, but where we start TOGETHER to explore the nature of reality. I dream of a dialog where I can get as excited as I am in front of a new problem or a new discovery, a dialog where both parts, the scientist and the spiritual person REALLY try to discover what is true TOGETHER, and not only discuss about the scientist’s narcissism.
This I didn’t’ find yet. Please have a look at my new blog, it is what we try to create with a few friends. Everyone is welcome and I hope at some point some spiritual teachers and philosophers will show up and help us in our enquiry. I still hope very talented teachers like Andrew will start to take this enquiry SERIOUSLY, will start to seriously talk to me and other scientists who are passionate with making this bridge between Science and Spirit. Andrew this is an open offer… !!!
Spiritual teachers shall go to Science conferences as well, they shall ask questions and give their wonderful insight. Not only “ the scientist give us this knowledge and the spiritual person gives Intuition , both the reciprocal too, the scientist can also give Intuition and the spiritual person his /her knowledge”
So Nada, the fault is on both part really, and let’s put it in a positive light, the dialog is just starting now, and maybe it is the most important task at hand for the next century, to reconcile the left and right quadrants.
Check us out..http://portailevolutif.wordpress.com/
Love, Catherine
Hi Catherine, Thanks for taking the time to introduce yourself as a “scientist”, someone interested in questions of Infinity and of God.
First, I’d like to counter your comment that I was “attacking” science or scientists. I did no such thing. I am not a person lacking in scientific thought, method, or respect for the scientific community, but as you aptly pointed out, the “quadrants” have yet to be reconciled. But the real question is “Why do feel the need to reconcile them?” I’ll get to this in a bit.
My comment was based both on the statements of Bob Berman (the man in the recording), and my own direct experience and actualization of what can only be called “spiritual dimensions.”
I am Nondually Realized, which means, as I stated above, that I have actually made myself conscious that “I AM” Infinite. And I have to say that you make a grievous error by saying spiritual dimensions represent “vacuity.” There isn’t a realized person on this planet that would use that word to describe their experience, and please don’t confuse the word “Void,” often used in spiritual “talk” to indicate any correctness in your use. As directly experienced and actualized by Sages and Mystics, SPIRIT is realized as an Infinite Divine Intelligent Loving BEING, Unknowable, Unnameable, Mysterious, yet IS the energy and intelligence that created all the phenomenon and the space(consciousness) in which all arises and dwells; in communication with, and as, all phenomenon, including stars, meteors, black holes, frogs, atoms, cells, kittens, water, quarks, paint and humans(etc.). In other words, Spirit IS everything, all the phenomenon and processes that ever were or ever will be. You see, when one makes the long and arduous interior journey of spiritual development and realization, they have directly experienced that they are not an individual IN the manifest universe, but that the universe is IN them. “I AM THAT” is not a nice “spiritual statement,” it is what awaits anyone who’s made that journey…I AM INFINITE is what one Realizes…
Give me a list of scientists that would agree with that, and I’ll tell that they are people who have discovered that the “breech” between science and religion is not about this or that intellectual or pycho-emotional “theory,” but the breech is in METHOD, and have further concluded for themselves that intellectual depth and intellectual AH HA! “intuition” is not enough and not the only or correct capacity in order to “directly discover” that “I AM INFINITE.”
So why are we compelled to “reconcile” spirituality and science? Is it because we as humans, the only species that we know of, have a “level” of consciousness that makes us ask the “big” questions? Yes! is the answer to that, but it is, by far, a more daunting and enlightening question then science and its *current* methods has yet to answer in an adequate way, and not at all as COMPLETELY as the interior spiritual methods do, such as Yoga (the Science of the Mind, not the postures), meditation, and how about Andrew Cohen’s Tenets of Evolutionary Enlightenment.
“Method” is then, the crux of the divide. I am “integrally” developed, and as a Nondualist, know that every part of the human condition and vehicles of body, mind and soul, are built for all the methods available to Realize Spirit, to Actualize the Infinite, Absolute Ground of all things as being not-other than themselves. But measuring processes and objects and making theoretical inferences from what is being observed is NOT THE WAY, because the observer and the observed are still DUAL to one another, and to Realize the Infinite as oneself means, among other things, that there are NOT-TWO, there is only ONE. You must become, actually, not-other than the process or object…and that is THE SCIENTIFIC FACT DISCOVERED BY ALL WHO’VE GONE THIS FAR!
“The aggressive scientism of the twentieth century,” as Ken Wilber calls it, has, so far, not been willing to acknowledge these interior methods as valid, and that is the “big” problem between science and spirituality. I reject reductionism because I have to; there is no other way to convince all who’ve made science their god that making Spirit into universal material processes ONLY is the most insidious error of our time.
But let me conclude with my initial proposition which is commensurate with Andrew’s; if cosmologists and/or scientists can begin to use the word “unknowable”, and can at least return to a more humble wonder of the Infinite universe, collective cultural beliefs would begin to transform, I might add, for the better. Scientists have an obligation to the meaning and purpose of human evolution; they need to start talking more in “unknowable” , and less in “we know”, terms, as Bob Berman pointed out.
Thanks for your ongoing inquiry…
Linda Nada
Linda,
please don’ be-little me. I am not a “scientist” quote and quote ( how offending is this ?)I am simply a fully working professional research physicist . I am well stamped, all schools OK. I am simply, socially, a physicist whether you like it or not. You can check our log to see by yourself whether you find it good or not, I let you the judge of this.
“The aggressive scientism of the twentieth century,” as Ken Wilber calls it, has, so far, not been willing to acknowledge these interior methods as valid, and that is the “big” problem between science and spirituality.
Agreed, and this also my quest. We fully agree here.
About Andrew Cohen’s five tenets, – well I find them wonderful and I fell in love with them. Andrew has been my teacher for the last four years.
So let’s agree that you are completely wrong about me. I am a counter example to all that you say.
Last about Vacuity, I feel you are simply wrong here too. Traditionally, the ultimate Spiritual dimension can be called Vacuity. Like in the Zen Buddhism, for example. I mean you have the four realms, Gross, Psychic, Subtle, Causal and Non dual. Causal, as far as I understand it, is about vacuity.
I agree with you that when Spirituality become non dual , then there is a “come back” to life and an embrace of the more mundane dimensions of life, from a rooted non dual spiritual perspective. But this is a very rare achievement. In order to reach this level one has to have made all the way through vacuity, through the contemplation and meditation on formless, to have reached the causal world and then come back. I am personaly not there.
You claim to the world that you are.
So our interaction is typical of the problems of communication between scientists and the spiritual world. If you start to talk to me as if I am a moron, as if I had no notion of the interior of the universe, but You as a Realized non Dual being know better, then what choice do you leave me ? what respect do you show to me ?and who is the one who supposedly knows everything here ? you or me ?
Hi Catherine, Thanks for responding, and I am happy to hear that you, at the very least, have an intellectual curiosity about the states and stages of consciousness development, but I have not set myself up against you to have you feel like a moron, it is you who sees meaning that isn’t there. You see, if you’re really interested in what consciousness development is about, then no, we can’t bypass the fact that the separate self-sense, or ego-rational mind, gets in the way. You can’t request, as you did in your inquiry to Andrew, to not talk about your narcissism or ego identification, because it is precisely the thing that causes contraction away from more meaningful dialog. If you strictly want to talk from “your knowledge” as a physicist, and have me talk from “my knowledge” as a Realized person, not much is going to happen. Again, simply, because the “method” and “means” of our “knowledge” drastically diverges, and that’s not a statement of “superiority” over you trying to make you feel like a “moron”, it is just a fact. Creative friction must occur; everything I or Andrew could say to you would both validate and challenge everything you think you know. And it’s finally coming to a place of “not-knowing” that you must accept, because Andrew and I already live there; we sacrificed our separation to the God/dess of our being. But if you accept the Hierarchy or Holarchy of Being, then “my” knowledge will always transcend and include your knowledge. Again, just a fact.
All physical, material processes are transcended and included; the contents, and the space in which all arises, is transcended and included; one ACTUALLY becomes stars and supernovas, atoms and neutrinos. I have studied all the “Einstein/Buddha” books; I have studied the writings of Bohm, Heisenberg, etc., and I think we can both say that we appreciate Andrew and Ken (and anyone else) for all their efforts in providing information about new emergents in scientific thought, such as this post displays. And I will check out your blog.
But let me be perfectly clear; “vacuity” is not a word that can be used to “describe” the Causal Ground, because NO WORDS can be used to describe the Causal Ground. It simply can not be spoken of at all. The Nondual traditions make a vehement point of this. And the reason is because the Causal Ground is not an “experience,” is is the Cause of ALL experience. So I graciously request that you discontinue applying words to That Which can’t be named or known. But please don’t quit contemplating the Ground of your being, because that is what will help you transcend your separation from it.
Albert Einstein: “All religions, arts and sciences are branches of the same tree. All these aspirations are directed toward ennobling man’s life, lifting it from the sphere of mere physical existence and leading the individual toward freedom.”
Thanks again for your efforts…(;}
Linda,
Thank you for this beautiful, cogent, intelligent, and elegant response. I was really nourished and educated by it.
“So if we take these new scientific discoveries and apply them to the first insight, we can say that the ultimate truth about the nature of reality is that the material universe is infinite.”
a word of caution here. I believe that the material universe, if we dine “martial ” as physicists do, namely “material is all we can see and measure on way or another, then the material universe, as far as what we can know from roughly 13 billion year of Evolution is finite, by definition.
All the matter that has been created is finite, if not, there would be no science. Science is about counting. If we find an infinite in our calculations, we work 50 years to remove it and the one who succeeds gets a Nobel Price for it.
Now indeed it is possible that Space and Time are infinite, and that all this finite universe emerges and unfolds out of an Infinite Void.
It is perfectly possible that all the universe in which we live, the relative universe, the finite part, is counted ( or measured) as zero compared to the Infinity from which is has emerged. In that sense indeed, the physicists would merely be counting “zeroes” or infinitesimally small part of the infinity all their lives. But isn’t it a miracle ? to be able to count zeroes ?
When I was a kid what amazed me is that I could count at all, that one could measure “anything”. I remember looking at a rubber scale where marks were put to measure space. Here was the first mark, and one cm later the second one. I was fascinated. Could one really “know” that this centimeter was really where the mark was ? How did my mind know that it was 1 cm between the two marks ? Those marks seemed to me coming out of the blues out of nowhere ? Out of the infinite.
Thinking back I feel it was an early spiritual experience, of a scientific character. If we indeed consider that the finite universe emerges out of the infinite, then
… the ability to count is a nothing but a miracle !
The scientist observes. The mystic observes and is aware of being observed. God realises It,s self through us.
Please find on the link below the transcript of BOB BERMAN’S STRANGE UNIVERSE Audio:
http://www.hudsonvalleyalmanacweekly.com/2012/01/27/an-unknowable-universe/
Hi Sergio and all, I had a read at the paper “ an -unknowable -universe ” by Bob Berman, through Sergio’s link. I find that the paper is scientifically poor, basically it is not scientifically well informed, and it is not correct.
The only thing that scientists can know about the size of the universe, is that what we measure, or can see, is finite. Now space can be infinite, but this we don’t know at the moment because we have no way to see it.
I think the whole story is a paradigm for the relationship between science and spirit. We have here a spiritual teacher of the highest caliber who got very inspired by a discussion with a scientist, but the paper he refers to is not scientifically well informed.
The irony of this paper is that Bob Berman speaks of the spiritual validity of not knowing, of the unknowable, and to support his theme, he presents a so called “scientific knowledge” in the form of “ the material universe is infinite”. The problem is that the knowledge is not correct. We are then in a very strange, ironic and a bit sad situation where again, communication is difficult between Science and Spirit.
Guys the truth is that physicists know very little. We know that what we observe is finite. Space time, and the Context might be infinite, though. Material universe itself ( if space is taken into account) might be infinite but this is precisely what we don’t know.
I still feel very inspired by Andrew’s insight, if we understand “ the context is infinite” and not “the material universe is infinite”, so I hope we can continue to discuss. Love, C.
Look Nada, this is incredible, you don’t know me bit not from Eve or Adam and I got all sort of psychotherapy -teaching, judgment on my character in your answer.
This is just simply unbelievable. I agree with you that Scientific Knowledge in all generality is not as high as Spiritual one. If not, I would never be on the quest. I would be pretty happy already with what I have. On the other hand, at the end of the day, Spiritual knowledge has to INCLUDE the scientific one and not leaving it behind, not antagonizing it. You need both at the end of the day.
Now you tell me that your personal knowledge, of little you Nada, is higher than my personal one. This stupid my dear. You don’t know me and I don’t know you. How could we judge ?
Maybe I am higher than you even spiritually, and you shall bow to me, not the opposite ,both spiritually and scientifically?
I have no problem with hierarchy, because simply scientists are the ones who have the least problems with fully and passionately recognize and embrace what is higher than them. I have much less problem with this than most of the spiritual teachers that I have met.
But how could I recognize your supposedly greatness if I don’t’ know you at all ? and no, if I don’t know you, I don’t give you a blank check of greatness. You shall prove yourself first, and then we will see. So far I saw nothing.
By the way I also agree n all generality that Scientist shall meditate as much as possible. It is something crucial if one wants to reconcile Science and Spirit. it is very important that scientists start to mediate since they then will SEE with their own eyes (spiritual ones) that the Great Chain of Being exists.
It is very important.
Nada, and you make me a fuss about the word Vacuity. I am French so in French Emptiness is “Vacuité”. So maybe indeed I shall have used Emptiness instead of Vacuity. My mistake.
Then you shall agree with me that Wisdom is the knowing of Emptiness, and as such Spiritual Realization (up to non dual) is the contemplation of Emptiness. You can find it everywhere. Open Ken Wilber at any page, ask Andrew, God knows, if you con’t believe me ! It is Dharma 101 the contemplation of ZERO, the via negativa.
If you made me all this fuss about a language issue, shame on you. This is not fair.
Last Nada about narcissism… I don’t’ know whether it is better to laugh or cry at what you say. Let me tell you, indeed I have this narcissistic Ego contraction. Indeed it took me a very long time to admit it. But well, I am not the only one, it is an epidemic. Andrew has it too, and Ken Wilber too and probably you too from what I can read ( although I don’t’ know you )
Moreover you culpabilize me with it saying that it and this is silly not acceptable.
So we are all very narcissistic, I am probably much more than others, but so what shall I spend my life only to look at my narcissism and during all that time nobody of the spiritual world will dare to talk to me ?
this is insane. We have so many things to discover so many realms to investigate, and my Ego will always be narcissistic in this life.
So I claim here again that good and talented spiritual teachers shall talk to scientists, on their own grounds. Many more scientists now want to have a real dialog, a few go and seek some advice from spiritual masters. This already beautiful and humble. This should be valued. I claim here agin that we are not the morons of spirituality as people like Nada seem to imply.
There is not such a thing like “ the spiritual persons are so high that they cannot talk to scientists” this is pure bullshit. The more spiritually realized and the more strong is a Master, the more he/she should be able to interact with a scientist.. if course we are demanding, but if our desire for Spirit is genuine, there should be no problem.
Hi Catherine, Indeed, “Emptiness” is WORD sometimes used to signify the Ground, but as you well know, words that signify something are not the things themselves. And this applies Infinitely to the Ground. So please just remember that when talking about “Emptiness,” that you know you are using a metaphor only, and not an actual, exact description, since again, the Ground is Unknowable and Unnameable. Words reflect concepts, and a concept or “notion” is not what the Causal Ground is, but it simultaneously is the arising of all concepts and notions. So it both is nor is not. “A rose is not a rose so therefore is a rose,” paraphrasing the Diamond Sutra.
And if you’ve read K.W., then you are savvy with the very real difference between “translation” and “transformation.” ???
And I feel it is accurate to say that only those who’ve made the journey “to the yonder shore,” have the exemplary knowledge to dialogue about that journey with “authority”, much the same way only an astronaut can describe what walking on the moon is like. You can speak to me of your work, and I will have to trust that your language exemplifies “physics.” I probably wouldn’t go check with other physicists to see if you are accurate, that’s for you to do. (I will believe you are an honest person until you prove otherwise.) It’s called a “community of the adequate”, and if you’ve read Ken Wilber, then you know of what I speak. So an ego-identified person can only “judge” others with their ego, no matter how intelligent they are. How do propose that person see the enlightened person clearly? It is only the “community of the adequate” that can validate or invalidate sage-like knowledge. Wouldn’t you agree?
Now, that’s not to say that one should follow just any teacher because they say they’ve accomplished the journey. One should take a very long time and study the teacher, contemplate their own proclivities, see how well they resonate with that teacher and teaching. I’m sure you’ve done this in choosing Andrew Cohen as a teacher. Good choice…
The Dalai Lama is known for his dialogues with “scientists.” Varela, an internationally renowned figure in systems theory and neuroscience says, “His Holiness has never found himself lost in these discussions of Western science. His keen intelligence penetrates with surprising precision into scientific arguments or accounts of experiments.”…the primary motivation is in service to others.
H.H. the Daiai Lama; “Scientific knowledge about matter is considerable. But in regards to the mind, it has access only to the most simple and obvious kinds of manifestation. Such knowledge stops at the very place where Buddhist intellectual, spiritual, philosophical, and empirical knowledge begins.”
God Bless
Nada,
look please you don’t know anything at all about me. So again stop making judgements without knowing the people, this is miles away form Enlightenment. The only thing you show by judging like this someone that you don’t’ know is that you are not Enlightened. I certainly don’t’ need your advice to choose my spiritual teacher. You act as if I asked you an advice but I didn’t . Actually one never “chooses” a spiritual teacher like you just said : think a lot, compare this and that and choose your spiritual teacher ( your advice is to choose a spiritual teacher like you would chose an apple or a computer ?). I personaly never wanted a spiritual teacher in the first place. But when you meet your teacher you know it, you know that you will make bit of the road with asking this person to help you. When it is time to leave you know it as well. We know these kind of things if one is sufficiently honest with oneself. No need to be enlightened. A good scientist can do that ! There is destiny in such an encounter. If not, it is not worth to go for it.
What amazes me about your vision of the world, is that for you, there is no such thing as an Enlightened Scientist. This notion simply doesn’t exist. As soon as I claim I am a scientist, you bring the tag “ not enlightened materialistic worldview ” upon me without even knowing me. That’s what I meant when I said that you belittle me even before knowing me.
In all the discussion above my most interesting post was about the Spiritual experience of the rubber scale. And we didn’t’ interact on it.
Apparently it was more interesting for you to give me some unwanted advice than to take me on something creative that I had brought.
Well, what to say.
In the “rubber post’ above I believe you have everything, you have one of the deepest spiritual insight that is known to me, of scientific character. You have already the full notion of Vacuity ( oops Emptiness or Infinity which are the same form an absolute viewpoint, and which is the same in Science as well ) and Measurement.
You also didn’t comment on my blog although it is where the real positive effort is made on my part to bridge a gap between Science and Spirit.
Indeed one of the things which make me very bitter and deeply un-satisfied at the moment is not to be able to have deep and satisfactory discussion with spiritual teachers who are Kosmically wired like Andrew is.
Maybe I am so dissatisfy with it at the moment that it is impossible for any teacher I meet to enter in a dialogue with me. I don’t’ know. it is something which hurts me a lot and I feel it shouldn’t be like this.
I have the ultimate respect for the work of the late Francisco Varela (actually I will write a blog about him). I know his scientific work is very important and on top of it he was the one who started the public dialog between Science and Spirit with the Dalai Lama. But one can see from the quotes that you cite above that it din’t go very far ( as a dialogue). It is still a whole field in prospect. I mean the Dalai Lama comes with the Idea that Spirit cannot be catched scientifically. I disagree with him. I feel in all modesty Science can reconstruct a lot of how spirit works. That’s why I am attracted by spiritual teachers who believe their teachings are already “scientific”. I thought OK with them there is a chance.
If you ask me to choose between becoming Enlightened and finding the way how Spirit works and to be able to push a little but the scientific understanding of it, I would chose the second. This understanding, in all its glory, is worth more than Enlightenment to me. Maybe to truly understand this I would have to become Enlightened. Maybe I would need to meet spiritual teacher who are interested to hear what I have to say as a scientist.
I am hopeful that the Kosmos will provide such encounters in the future.
IT is one of the mod important things to reconcile Science and Spirit with no compromising.
Hello Catherine,
When I write on this blog, even if I am “addressing” an individual, I am talking from the transpersonal level, not the personal, to any and all who might be interested in the dialogue. My most loving advice to you is for you to think about how you personalize almost everything you say, and likewise, receive comments and twist them into personal attacks. What I feel after carefully reading your responses is that you are putting too much energy into defending a self that doesn’t really exist, instead of inquiring from the “Authentic Self,” and since you are Andrew’s student, I needn’t say more.
You said; “When you meet your Teacher you know it…There is destiny in such an encounter. If not, it is not worth to go for it.” When you meet “your” Teacher, and you sense destiny in the encounter, there is still a chooser making a choice, except the Chooser, in every instance of choosing, is the One Self. Within the ego or the Soul is always the One Self as Ground of all choosing. Separation is only apparent; the One Self surrounds and permeates all things inseparably. I wasn’t giving “you advice”, I was speaking from a “general” sense, again, giving my opinion to any who read the comment, and yes, I think it is wise to follow Andrew’s teaching.
You said; “I” believe there is “…no such thing as an Enlightened Scientist.” Enlightenment, or nonduality, is developed in stages, so to be an “enlightened scientist”, my opinion is that, to have a degree of enlightened awareness stably developed, one has to transcend the separate self-sense to at least the existential level, K. Wilber’s “centaur” level, or the level of “integral-aperspectival” mind, which is “holonic through all contexts.” Enlightenment knows no boundaries, so whether you are a scientist or a janitor, if you’re stably developing through the stages, you are slowly developing enlightened awareness.
You said; “my most interesting post was about the Spiritual experience of the rubber scale. And we didn’t interact on it.” If that experience held so much for you, you don’t need anyone to validate it for you. And further, “spiritual experiences” are unstable phenomenon that can facilitate an awakening, but they are not the awakening itself. True “Awakening” means some part of you was surrendered to open you up into the space of consciousness, a “part” of your “ignorance” of your True Self was sacrificed…this can happen at any time to anyone, young or old, healthy or infirm.
What Spirit wants is stable, healthy, whole development, not partiality, not ego-identified fantasies about being enlightened, or worse yet, that there is nothing to do at all because one wants to believe they are already enlightened. Spirit is very interested in Wholeness, in actualities, not dreams.
God Bless and Keep You,
Linda Nada
Have you ever felt a complete Kosmic dissatisfaction, I mean a frustration so big that it takes Kosmic scale ? have you ever felt so deperate about a misunderstanding that your anger is reaching the furthest Galaxies out there ?
It is what I feel at the moment.
So, here is a call to all of the spiritual teachers of the Galaxy, to all beings that feel that they are Enlightened and have accomplished the great leap forward. Please talk to us scientists !! Dare to talk to us in our own terms with our impressing knowledge and training. Just talk to us with your Intuition !!!
We need to understand the most important questions of why something came out of nothing. We need to understand how this happened, we need to understand how Emptiness has generated the wonderful world of Form, how this unfolding has happened. We need to interpret the Miracle of Measurement, how out of the Infinity of space could anyone measure anything. We are a few scientists here who believe this is possible, that it is possible to really make the bridge between the Ascenders and the Descenders. We need to talk and interact in a much stronger way with any Spiritual Teacher or anyone who feels he or she has an intuition on these matters.
Please talk to us, talk to us about Infinity, about Zero, about Objects in consciousness, talk to us until we can rebuild the world from a truly Integral perspective encompassing uncompromising rigor and breadth. Talk to us until we can really unite Depth and Span. Talk to us with your Intuition, In our own terms. Interact with us please and don’t let us down to do all the task of
becoming Enlightened and Solve the bridge between Spirit and Mind.
I am sure the abridge is possible, I am sure that the human mind can and has to become able to encompass Science and Spirit. The one who is Thinking is the done who is enlightened already.
So please, again, if there is anyone who understands this in the entire Kosmos, just join us and talk to us.
This is the Future, this is really the only task at hand for us in the Future.
Hi Catherine.
I understand your frustrations in relation to the more cerebral/intellectual expositions of enlightenment that usually frequent these forums. It certainly is an interesting challenge you put forward and of course there was no direct responses since no one on here are that self-realized but that they like to think they are. I think you will find that most so-called enlightened people are really just social critics with perhaps a good dose of psycho-emotional understanding to help alleviate the anxiety and stress within their environment. These critics follow a long line of other critics that have learnt to use an elaborate spiritual language to provide themselves with a formidable defense against their fellow creatures in order to provide themselves with some sense of power in relation to others. In this respect your requests are best directed to mystics rather than sages or social critics who might profess to be self-realized but are in fact far from it since as you point out, if they were then they could begin to solve some of the dilemmas felt by the scientific community rather than brushing the dilemmas to one side. Even the Buddha was guilty of this who would say do not dwell on such things as they are a distraction upon the path of non-attachment. Obviously this a spiritually eloquent way of saying he has no idea about the working of the Kosmos.
I myself have a few experiences that you might be interested in. On a few occasions during meditations, one of which was a deliberate meditation on the Void during a retreat, I have found myself in the void and then moving towards what can only be described as a black hole. As I moved towards the dark core I became immensely afraid since I sensed I would totally lose any sense of myself including any spiritual egoic notions of Oneness (The Big I AM) or any other spiritual identity/belief that I might feel attached to at the time. I had no idea of what might lie in wait on the other side or whether I would even still be intact and existing and did not continue with my journey. There was however a sense of something that could help me to understand some of the questions that you ponder and would at least give some insight into how matter turns into energy, that continuum that involves experiencing the paradox of transformation.
Interestingly, I also had experiences of what I can only describe as being on the other side of the black hole so rather than there being a dark core, there was a light core and from deep within the process of creation via the creation of thought was literally occurring. Again I was on the edge of this white hole and again I felt a deep terror that if I was to enter the white core I would totally lose any sense of myself. However I knew that what I was witnessing was the creation of thought and as thought was being created from within this white core, it would then pass into the world as a tangible energetic form in order to be made manifest.
Taking both of these perspectives together I surmise that the black hole with its light periphery and the white hole with its dark periphery are two sides of the same coin and whereas energy/matter are being sucked in one side, the same energy/matter is being converted and projected out the other as thought forms. Does this mean that energy/matter being sucked in is unused or redundant thought forms and so energy/matter is being re-cycled into useful thought forms – a process that might be described as evolution itself?
However what is interesting and of true significance is what is happening within the black/white hole. According to these visions, this is where many of answers to the mysteries of the universe lie. I really did get a sense of thought being created within the white hole and was absolutely curious whilst at the same time too afraid to venture within and find out exactly the process of creation. It certainly is at the back of mind to make space in my life to do so at some point in my life.
So yes I have a great deal of sympathy for your project and agree that science can provide explanations to what are presently considered to be spiritual experiences (or not if you are Nada) and that a true collaboration would be very interesting indeed.. Unfortunately like you so far I have never met a so-called enlightened person who is so self-realized that they have an intimate knowledge of the working of the universe. I doubt if you would meet such a person on here since it is mostly orientated towards psycho-emotional well-being with a good dose of religiosity. In that respect, you would be better looking for mystics without a religious bias/intellectual attachment in my opinion. If you find any please let me know.
Hi Rohan,
I see your comment only late here. It is interesting to me because you describe your black/hole and our white/hole. Anther friend described me something similar two hers ago at a retreat, using lost the same words. So I don’t know what it is. The question of interpretation of these type of experiment is extremely difficult, and science is not at the level yet to provide a scheme, a context for interpretation. That’s the point with the interior world, as soon as you enter it everything seems to be subject to interpretations. My view is that humanity’s consciousness will evolve to move out the frontier between what is exterior and what is interior. If you feel you can go into it again, I am interested in you visions. For example I am inserted to know whether if you go into it again, you will se the same black hole with a white hole or white hole with a block hole, or whether you will not see them again. You see the whole notion of reproducibility seems to be at stake when on deals with the interior world.
Love, C
Hi there all.
Forgive me, but I would like to comment with a somewhat tongue in cheek approach to this whole sage of the infinite phisica/spiritual universe.
Firstly to all those would be scientists that spend their lives guessing and theorising about whether or not the universe is infinite, I say: Look at what the Hubble telescope has already discovered with it’s deep field 11/14 day exposure.
We have now literally moved from a 13.5Bn light year old universe to a 64Bn + light year old universe, and when the infra red James Webb telescope is finally launche when the American govenment get’s is head out of it’s rear end, you will see that the universe is in fact “INFINITE”.
Now as far as the smallest particle is concerned, speculation and guess-work is just as rife.
Higgs what ever,”God” particle that everything is made of. “STARDUST” You name it what you will, “‘and then what”???? Exactly, What then, and what about all the space around that particle and what makes “IT” up, or is that it. Dark Energy????? is that what we call the Creator from now on??
My question is there; ”What makes it all TIC”???????And why can’t even the greatest scientific minds of the world, from Hawking to Einstein, explain the order to the universe.
”HOW IS IT POSSIBLE THAT ”WE” EVEN EXIST”, let alone the universe.
What made it SO?
As far as all thee want to be spiritualists/preachers are concerned, remember one thing:
”NO ONE HAS EVER SURVIVED TO TELL THE TALE”
However, without some form of belief in an (genderless) Allmighty, Power, God/Gods at the heart of this whole universe thing/debate here amongst us humans, none of it makes any sense what so ever.
Personally I like to stay away from such debates because we are all living this fantastic miracle existance called human life with all it’s stupid and not so stupid trappings, trials and tribulations.
I also steer away from delving too deep into the spiritual end of things because frankly, the powers that be on that front are a manipulative bunch of arrogant SOBs with only their own agenda in mind and that is to deprive every gullible living soul from an opinion of their own.
Once again, I go with my gut feeling and am seriously better of by doing so.
To Nada and Catherine, or should I say Catherine and Nada, you should take up cage fighting rather than this forum to sort out your personal differences. You put a whole new perspective on confusion and B/S baffles brains.
I read these comments to find some open-minds with not only proof for what they are saying, but a bit of a sence of humor to lighten up a day too.
To Andrew Cohen I find your wisdom and enlightenment refreshing and right up my ally when it comes to making sense of it all.
To you I say; I am looking forward to my next path as this one slowly draws to a close, and yes I too am equally enlightend despite not being a scientist or a spiritualist.
As they say in the classics: ”THANK GOD I’M AN ATHIEST” Ha Ha Ha.
OH; ”Is the universe infinite”???
Well………. It can not be any other way.
Is life truely eternal??
Well………. Not on this earth it isn’t.
I think it was Einstein who said;
” There are only two things that are infinite, The universe and man’s stupidity, and I’m not sure about the universe ”
I really hope to find a few more meaningfull comments on this site because I think some of you see this forum as a personal battleground rather that a place of peace and truthful interaction without all the claws and daggers crap.Stick to proven fact and back it up with that proof.
My proof is ”Hubble and Webb telescopes” when it comes to realising an ifinite universe.
As far as the spiritual is concerned it makes sence that a greater power is the driving forse behind everything.
In closing, to all those poor confused scientists that are unable to marry body and soul; You need to change your prspective from guesswork to truth, and realise your emotions for what they are. Emotion is as dark and mysterious as the space between atoms and galaxies alike.
Don’t loose focus on what life’s mission is.
We are here to realise the creation. Look up at the stars and know that there is and can be no beginning, no end and no limit to this, our ”Univers”, and glorify it’s Creator through the knowledge that we are one of the most fantastic of ”His” (oops) works.
We are only just starting to discover the complexity of the Creators work and shudder at our own thaughts as we let our imagination take hold of Creation and fly with it.
Wow look we actually have let our imagination get the better of us as we, like little childre, run with ideas rather than hard facts. Slow down and stop getting ahead of yourselves. That’s the whole reason why an infinite universe is such a problem for you. On the one hand you want to believe it yet on the other hand it hasn’t been proven yet.
You apply one rule to your imagination and another rule to your scientific guess-work and then you get proven rong.
No wonder you are confused and angry.
”STOP TO SMELL THE ROSES”
Look into a newborn baby’s face and tell me you don’t want to burst into tears. Have you actually wondered why that is, and can you perhaps give some thaught to who and what you are and why you feel anything at all.
If life on Earth, as we know it as humans, is but what it is, and to an athiest or one who doesn’t believe in a life here after, over and done with the moment you kick the proverbial bucket so to speak, than we really have nothing to look forward to once its all over now do we, life is but a big random, what??? accident.
If, on the other hand you take all the unexplainable life experiences such as emotion in all forms and disguises, dreaming, Imagination, creativity and so on and on, and convert all of that into knowledge and understanding into what makes all of us unique and individual, you will begin to understand a little more about ther reasoning behind a”Creator” of all things including the unseeable, and what glues everything together in this brilliant universe.
You all of a sudden have something to look forward to when this life draws to a close and to where you are off to next.
Andrew talks of evolution.
It can not be any other way, or the whole universe doesn’t make sense.
I know, to some it doesn’t make sense.
I say; ”Oh well, thats evolution for you”.
The inability to accept creation for what it is by filling the mind with non sensical scientific mumbo jumbo in an attempt to try to unravel everything from the galaxies to the God particle, shows a fundamental flaw in the way we are brougtht up today, and I thank first and foremost my dearest darling ”Mother” Clemantine for raising me to think for myself and not to pay any mind to being ostresised for my beliefs and ways as a result.
I also thank Andrew Cohen for his strength and conviction in creating this wonderful forum.
I will close by saying, ” The days of religious/spiritual, political economic and scientific manipulation and the world as we know it and have persisted with for centuries is now finally over, and we stand on the brink of a new beginning.
All over the world the evidence of the end of the old and the beginning of the new is visible for all those who understand what is hapening.
I believe that we as a human species are revolting against all injustices.
Our instincts tell us deep down and without conciously even knowing it, that things the way they are, are seriosly wrong.
That is in itself proof of a great power that is deeprooted within us that is just, kind, loving, compassionate, emotional, pacient and just darn good.
If a new beginning brings a new way of life alltogether where the trappings of this man made existance by a few with only their own gain in mind come to an end, then I am all for it.
Did they really think it could carry on for ever.
I am a carpenter, you are a scientist, and our beginning is for free. Howzat for a fun beginning.
You make a pill to soothe my arthritis and I make you a beautiful coffee table that will take pride and place in your home.
A fair trade don’t you think, or are we all of a sudden going to fall prey to the old ways and say my table is worth a life’s supply of your lowzy little pill.
See where I’m going with this??? It is so easy to fall back into old habits.
”Everything must have a value or it has no meaning”!!!
I hope it never gets back to that and we all can give and give more, without expecting anything back at all. Forget about fair trade, that’s for dummies.
If tomorrow, money miraculously disappeared because of a global economic collapse, we would have no choice but to carry on regardless, and would have to really show what we are made of.
Inictially I imagine a free for all, but I also see that as very short-lived as comon sence and the true but lost human spirit finds it’s new way.
My love is for free, my knowledge and life experience is for free.
Oh, and I am given to calling a spade a spade and am prone to using the odd profanity when stupidity knocks at my door, especialy when it’s my own.
I’m just a guye like most other guys, and I thank the master Creator ”God” for showing me the universe and the truth in all it’s glory.
Love
Pieter
Ha ha!!
Creation is a cauldron and this intersubjective space is a crucible; all manner of vainglory or suffering or humility or brain vomit is OK, because it’s all part of the messy, stinky, rewarding, shocking process of evolution…
Enjoyed your post! (;}
Brilliant Nade
Love your sense of humour, and I agree, this is a confusing mess we live today.
However, I am sure you will agree that, We have made it so, and lost sight of all reality in the prosess.
We have moved from making human sacrifises to please the Gods to sacrifising the entire human race to quench a single God’s desires and thirst for obsene whelth and posession.
Your description is spot on.
We have what it takes and are in the process of making the fundamental changes needed to steer the human race in a new direction and take the path less travelled this time. This surely will make all the difference.
(Robert Frost ”The road less taken”) Here both roads are discribed and both equally worn yet one is paved and groomed while the other lies barren and looks in need of a travelers footsteps.
We all walk both paths every day. The one in servitude to a God of human making, and when we arrive home all tattered and torn and confused we hear a voice speak of peace and tranquility and a life filled with truth and love and a different kind of reality that takes the stench out of life as we know it today.
This is the road we are about to embark on and I wholeheartedly look forward to dragging a few die-hard 21st century materialistic fools screeming and kicking like five year old brats along with me.
I can just hear them ” waaaaaaaaaaaa I want my Mommmmmy!!!!!”
Enlightenment and Evolution are such fun don’t you think?
Ok it’s true; this is all brain vomit as you call it, so tata and hope to hear from you again.
Love
Pieter
Hello it’s me again.
Sorry, and I apologize profusely for my lapse in concentration. It is this;
Let us never stop wondering and giving praise to all those brave individuals who have given their lives so that we may walk this new path.
Their sacrifice flies in the face of all critics of a new beginning and evolution.
I honor them and hold them and place them beside the Creator as they live for ever in our memories.
All those who by the same token are sent to battle like lambs to slaughter stand beside the others with having had the choice, but having had the lack of or a misguided insight into a new beginning.
Love
Pieter
Bravo, friend! I can appreciate your sense of humor, also..
I’ve come to the conclusion that those who can laugh at themselves are more wise than those who take life so seriously they are tightly contracted away from anything like a giggle about their own self-consciousness. Those who can laugh out loud at their own existential BS tend to be the ones who are willing to “not-know,” and in my experience, Not-knowing is an inner posture that helps one to be more available to the Divine energies and Intelligence of their being. Laughing helps one to dwell in a Sacred Kosmos, and not a de-sacralized Universe.
I mean, don’t even the stones laugh out loud to the Heavens? Wouldn’t you agree?
Yes, let us give praise to all who’ve come before that we may be and become…
Thanks for your responses,
Love and Light to You (;}
Hello Nada,
no hard feelings from me… actually my cry in the desert was not addressed to anyone in particular, except maybe to my teacher Andrew, so…
In any case although I value humor and lightness of being, I am deadly serious with finding a scientific answer to the question you raise
“ what did anything come out of nothing? ”.
I am convinced that such a scientific answer exists and that probably some people have found it already. It is emerging at the moment.
I wish more spiritual teachers would talk to us eye to eye, putting Science and Spirit as equals in an evolutionary context, especially the spiritual teachers who contemplate the Infinite , in an evolutionary context. Because as soon as a spiritual teacher can talk of the infinite, he or she can talk to a theoretical physicist.
Have a look at this man Dyson… he is the showing the way, like Varela did. Reunion of Science and Spirit is one of the most important tasks at hand.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freeman_Dyson
Dear Catherine,
You ask the Question…Why did Something come from Nothing?
Because YOU CHOSE TO BECOME
That’s what Enlightenment says to any and all who ask the Question
LOL(;}
Hi Catherine,
I want to tell you about myself so that you can understand my perspective a little better and perhaps you can relate to my difficulties, what needs to be overcome by all, with what I sense is the approach to “this reunion of Spirit and Science.” But first I’ll say, while I agree that conversation is a good and worthy endeavor, what is at the heart of it all is *values*, or the “value spheres.” Science addresses our material situation in the world, Spirituality addresses our psycho-emotional, moral and existential situation in the world, and Ultimate Meaning to the mortality of the body and the suffering, in all of its shades, of those conditions; essentially WHAT IT MEANS TO BECOME. What science and spirituality can reveal and address are always and only NOT-TWO.
I am currently writing a book on the states and stages of consciousness development, based in my direct experience, transmutation and integration of the “levels” of Reality, including the Ground of All, and Nondual emergence. The premise of my book is that I was born with what Ramana would call a “ripe soul”, already evolved enough to “become” through all of the stages/levels. Mine was a life of suffering and trials beyond imagination, but the Path was there, laid out before me like so many stones from the base to the Summit. And what is so fascinating is that I had no idea where each stone was leading me to, but I intuited them as solid and real as any stone I could hold before my eyes. I dwelled, literally in “Unknowing.” I had no idea that what occurred was “spiritual” in nature. I had no “outer” teacher or teaching, but the “inner” Teacher was a compassionate but relentless taskmaster, and this Teacher was That Which led me, not me it. But I gained, by my effort, a reciprocity, surrender and union with it, until I became that Teacher, the One Self. If I had called my experience anything, and not very often to another human being, it was “psychic.” Little did I know that I was only partially correct. It took entering into the stage of total dissolution, what Zen calls the “Great Death”, to finally proclaim out loud the profundity of it all. But I didn’t know I was becoming Enlightened; I had no working, philosophical “idea” of what enlightenment was…and here’s a fact, you don’t have to know, you must “unknow.” The book is in the form of a “namthar”, both a personal and a transpersonal writing, with an integral/evolutionary/ developmental imperative. In other words, it bares witness as an example of Nondual Yoga.
Having “integrally” developed, and after Enlightenment, when I finally picked up my first “spiritual” writing, not knowing anything, it was “The Yoga Sutras of Patanjali,” a book I was “led” to. I read the first few pages and slammed it shut, shocked at the revelation that I had indeed become “enlightened.” Therein began my quest. Since I had never read spiritually based books, since I was not identified with this or that tradition, and was a “secular” person, essentially doing what every other secular person was, the “field” was wide open. I have studied, for the past ten years, literally everything that I felt could “unite” my experience to a “more than adequate” translation. I looked in psychology, Jungian and otherwise, physics, all the writings of the greatest mystics, even “new age”, which I had long since discarded as surface psycho-emotional coddling. I came to Andrew and Ken Wilber about four years post-enlightenment, through Andrew’s magazine, “What Is Enlightenment”, but had been, before that point, intuiting Andrew’s teaching in the world. I was so grateful to find there where such minds in the world, I literally fell to my knees and kissed the ground.
Catherine, I don’t doubt that there are scientific minds that intuit more than physical reality; KW has made the point that the some of the first physicists were indeed “mystics.” But I also believe something very drastic happened in the process of taking this astounding new knowledge and delivering it to the masses, not only because others have illuminated the divide of “method and means”, but because I had to go through the stage of transcending “scientific materialism.” It had become an aggressive part of modern and post-modern ego-development. So much so, that the ego had become almost irrevocably cemented in gross-reflecting awareness. The “numinous” has become random firings of our gray matter, consciousness is seen as arising from the brain, our personalities are predetermined by our genes, etc. And for someone like me, who has transcended and transmuted it all, this is especially problematic. My job, Andrew’s and anybody else who has had a mystical life, must address this situation in the world.
In my opinion, the discussion will not only confirm the scientific findings, as nature and Spirit are always and only Not-two, but return the “spiritual dimensions” to their rightful place, revealing Spirit as an Ultimate Value. Semantics, hermeneutics are our tools, but can not replace the method of interior exploration, the lands beyond words.
Well enough for now. I apologize for not looking at your site yet, but will get there soon.
Thanks again for your efforts!
Linda Nada
Hi there again Linda and Catherine.
I am with great interest reading the posts between you and would like to make a very small contribution if I may.
It is only this:
”The initiation into Hermetics” by Franz Bardon.
If you can find the books they will certainly be a very worth while addition to your library. The teachings and lectures are thankfully available on the internet aswell.
I hope this will set a spark in motion for Catherine in her quest for the reconsiliation of science and spiritualism.
Good luck
Love
Pieter
Hi Pieter,
I am happy for your interest and comments…I will check out this book.
Thank You, Linda Nada
Linda, just every quickly.
I believe Science and Spirit shall not be separated but simply hierarchically organized. Simply Spirit is ontologicaly higher. There is not deep ontological separation of nature between the scientific drive and spiritual drive.
After all what is science, but an ability to re-contruct the world using logical tool ( reason) and a community which observes the world ( a community of witnesses) . This broad vision of science can also be of use in spiritual endeavor. Nothing prevents to use logics and to have a community of Witnesses.
The problem we face is simply cultural. After the modern Enlightenment, Science has usurped the first place and has reduced the whole world to “what we can see”. Materialist reductionism. This is really unfortunate because it puts us into a prison of matter with no escape and our Soul is suffering a lot.
That’s one reason why reuniting the two quadrants is so important.
Meanwhile the Spiritual world has been guilty in the opposite direction. In many spiritual traditions the use of logical thinking and reason is considered negligible. You have this especially in shamanic and New Age circles where spiritual teachers sometimes tell you something like “ I do see and you don’t so you have to trust me”. So you beg to them “ Ok if you see and I don’t, just show me ,so that I can see too…” But no, they want you to trust them without seeing. IT is simply old power play nothing more.
That’s why [although sometime he makes me mad], Andrew is one of the most wonderful teachers and a jewel teacher for any scientist who received a spiritual calling, because he insists on keeping the logical thinking with us and he almost never makes logical mistakes when explaining about spirit. he has also a scientific attitude in that he shows you what he sees and doesn’t ask s you to trust him blindly. That’s why it is so important that teachers like Andrew talk to us about the Infinite. We can, in this other way have a chance to asymptotically re-unite the two quadrants.
When your logical thinking is pure enough, then there is never a problem. It will naturally encompass Imagination , Creativity and Intuition, in a spiral way, up to the causal where indeed it will reach its own shore and let Spirit only operate. Believe me, the mind is never a problem. How could it be a problem, it is simply a wonderful too, one of the most powerful one devices by Evolution. What is a problem is to think poorly.
In French we say: “ a little bit of Science takes us aways from God, while a lot of it bring us back to God”. [ Un pen de Science nous éloigne de Dieu , beaucoup nous y ramène ! ]
Love, C.
By the way, my personal belief is that our way of thinking is in evolution itself and that when humans will be more developed, Thinking istelf will incorporate a lot of Intuition, Vision and Spiritual Inspiration.
Another very interesting angle of reunion is the Love of the Truth. It is a very high spiritual value. Your Soul, my Soul needs it. I mean even if one doesn’t see things clearly, simply to believe an know with certainly that ruth exists is vital for the Soul. Science and Philosophy shall be ultimately about the love of the Truth in all its forms and not only about technology. I know this is a very Platonician ( even neo -platonician view) but hey… did we go that far since Plato and Plotinus? To me they are still valid and the love for the Truth is an essential quality on which Spiritual people and Scientists can converge.
Science and Spirit really shall get married for good , or simply we shall say, re-united.
Dear Catherine, Thank you for your balanced, coherent, rational response. But I’d like to attempt, again, to bring you to a greater sense of what I’ve meant by “method and means” when talking about “spiritual” development.
From my developed, enlightened perspective, once again, ALL is Spirit, and so, I’m sure you’ll agree, anything like a “scientific drive” is always and only Spirit’s drive in you. I don’t quite know what you mean by “scientific drive”, except that “science” is an evolutionary development of our recent history, made possible and more generally available to all thru education by the separation of the value spheres of Church and State, and likewise, an *identification* most prevalent with modernity and post-modernity. The “scientific mind” defines/describes what “modernity” was, right? So what you really mean is that you are identified as a person with a scientific character; quite honestly, I could proclaim the same myself. I am a person, as many or most people are of our era, quite capable of scientific thought and procedure. That ‘s what the evolutionary stage of “rationality” means in general; “logic” as its own separate capacity from, say, the emotions, morals, sexual, etc. Hence, KW’s “lines of development.” All of these, and MORE, are humanity’s potentials, yes?
But you, even with all of your research, have missed or misinterpreted, an extremely valuable point, and it is this: Those human potentials that are “more” are already available more deeply within the rational mind. MIND, with capital letters, is just that, an entire or whole capacity of every human being (and possibly some non-human beings like apes, whales and dolphins, as we are discovering that they have self-reflective capacities), it is only a matter of how developed and identified you are. The ego-rational mind is the average-mode capacity; almost everyone alive, as we speak, is developed to, and identified with, this stage. The rational mind is an evolutionary development that is only a “half-way” point, as astounding as it is, it is only a partial capacity to what is TOTALLY available as our capacities RIGHT NOW. A necessary and good capacity, but partial to all that is available.
The rational mind IS the ego, and vice versa, and it’s job IS gross-reflecting awareness. It is the “discursive mind”, the mind that thinks and talks to itself. It must be differentiated, made an “object” of the next greater capacity, and transformed to its purpose. The Higher Illumined Mind, or subtle-reflecting awareness is the GREATER CAPACITY because it transcends and includes the rational mind. The illumined mind encompasses MORE of reality, more phenomenon, more of Spirit’s Truth, because it is the correct and more capable capacity deeper than the rational mind by itself, identified with only. Understand?
You have it backwards; you want the higher, more subtle capacity to become part of the lower, rational capacity, when indeed, it is the rational mind that becomes the tool of the subtle mind and capacity for contemplating the Divine. The rational mind can imagine, it can create amazing things and has helped to bring great dignity to the masses, but it is the “eye of the mind”, not the Eye of Contemplation. Evolution has already granted your desire. It is up to you to break down and see through the illusion of boundary, to desire more than anything to be free of all boundaries.
I see that you mean that evolution will make it “easier” to create union between all of the capacities; isn’t that precisely what Andrew and Ken, myself, and anyone else who has Witnessed or Radically Become the Absolute is here to do? Isn’t it what every person is here to do? We chose to sacrifice, over and over again, our personal fears and desires, our personal lives and every attachment, to become the One, so that we could make the stages more available to the Many. The drive (evolutionary impulse) to become self-aware is available now to the earnest, humble seeker…but there is much work to be done. My advice to any and all; Don’t try to make God or Spirit or Brahman, or whatever term you use, in your image. You already have the Image of Spirit in you, it is up to you to choose to reach for it.
Here’s a quote from KW’s “Eye of Spirit”:
“…we cannot solve the absolute/relative problem using the eye of flesh or the eye of mind. The deepest of problems and mysteries directly yields its resolution only to the eye of contemplation. And, as both Kant and Nagarjuna forcefully demonstrated, if you try to state this solution in intellectual or rational terms, you will generate nothing by antinomies, paradox, contradiction.”
“In other words, we cannot solve the absolute/relative problem empirically, [not with] sensibilia or intelligibilia. The solution, rather, involves the direct apprehension of transcendelia, which are disclosed only by the eye of contemplation and are most definitely verifiable or falsifiable IN THAT DOMAIN”, (caps mine) disclosed by “illumination.”
There is good reason why Awakened Souls speak paradoxically; the Infinite cannot be spoken of without including the paradox; language is paradoxical! Andrew knows this; he’s tailored his teaching to “reach” the Western, rational mind on its terms, with the awakened intention to move the rational mind off its stubborn position. Understand?
By the way, I’ve checked out your blog site,
Linda Nada
Linda, to tell the truth I really agree with most of what you say. I agree that the scientific drive is part of the spiritual drive, completely. When I say they are hierarchically organized it simply means that the spiritual drive is bigger in breadth and perspective and subtlety. It is thus simply more evolved.
For your argument of the dolphin. I also find it interesting with one point of caution which is given to us by Ken Wilber and his pre-trans fallacy. It is the whole point of Evolutionary Spirituality compared to standard non dual one. Indeed I believe that all potentials are there “somewhere” ( if the notion of “somewhere” applies at all to a potential) but what counts is not that they are “already here” but our ability to actualize them in the future. A dolphin is not a human. As an animal it has some mental capacities and potentially a universal “MIND” ( to use your words), but still he has not developed its capacities of cognition as we human did.
What is this ability to evolve, the ability to actualize new potentials? what does it consist of, and how does emergence occur ?
here are the scientific spiritual questions I am asking.
In a sense my (tough ) question for you would be : what do you do with your non Dual Realization ? can you Evolve out of it ? if you cannot then to me it is not really interesting, it is simply a static state that you have achieved at that is really impressive but so what. If, on the other hand no dual Realization is foundational and important for Evolution, then it is another story altogether…then it will be like a forest fire among the Souls of people.
It is what Andrew impersonates. This is quite unique. He didn’t only “bring back from the East ” non dual realization, he is going much further than the East and marries it with the genius of the West.
The Kosmic Mistake of the East is not to have Evolved out of their non dual Realization. It is an enormous mistake oaf dimensions so big that it is still almost impossible for Eastern Master to admit it.
They didn’t recognize the value of Evolution. They are missing half of the picture.
Hi Pieter, I will check the book.
The best I know in the Hermetic field and its union with
Science is Rudolf Steiner.
He impresses me a lot. Later on, I learned that all that he says is already in the Rosicrucian tradition which is still very present in France.Some people have said that he is the most evolved Rosicrucian Master to have talked openly.
There are others very interesting, like Louis Claude de Saint Martin and the Martinism. This tradition is extremely strong but I don’t know it well enough to see the Causal and Non Dual realization in them though.
My intuition is to go forward with Spiritual Teachers like Andrew, while recognizing the whole validity of the Esoteric Tradition ( well understood).
Hello All and Catherine, and thank you for your comments.
Like with any occupation, it doesn’t help to study till one is blue in the face.
Without putting what one has learned into practice for oneself, certificates will remain on the wall as wall paper and one will never be able to prove anything in the field one proclaims to be an expert.
The study and practice of the hermetic ways of reaching higher levels of conciousness and understanding of the functions of the universe, start to pay off when your applications start to show results.
The same applies to AMORC etc (from Alistair Crowley to Edgar Casey to Rudolf Steiner, Franz Bardon and many others, it is through their practices that they are able to show and prove that these practices work.
At the same time these practices are tinkering on the bizarre, as many of them defy scientific explenation, particularly in the case of Edgar Casey.
A modern day Nostradamus to say the least, and he did it all for free (but then you do learn ”that” very early on in an esoteric apprenticeship, and your implimentation and practices of any form of clairvoyance, healing, the making of predictions etc only truely function fully if done for no reward.)
Are we all capable of doing what he did? He said we are. But everything comes with the usual sacrifices………. Purification of the sould to begin with, doesn’t sit too well with the majority of mankind.
Practice ofcourse also makes perfect. You should really try and find some form of spiritual, esoteric practice in order to find answers for all these confusing problems you have with quadrents, the spiritual/physical devide, so that you can marry it all together into what, to the likes of me, is plain obvious.
You clearly know enough about the existance of various esoteric schools, but have you actually tried any of the practices at all?
For example….. Breathing………singular thaught……Body vibration awareness…..self awareness, and so on ( forget about the magical/alchamistic practises for now.)
Reading about or studying esoterics is one thing, but it is a completely different and very rewarding path if put into practice.
All your answers lie in the actual ”physical” development of the areas in the body attributed to all spiritual functions within the body.
Our bodies are the vesal on this earth in which we reside for a brief moment on our evolutionary path.
What is ”OUR”?? It is exactly what it is. You, Me, and everything in the universe.
What is ”OUR” mission?
Collectively as humans, we are here to realise the creation in all its glory. Individually our mission is to partake in the greater mission, and find a place we can call our own. (I am not going to further go into the failing of our collective mission/path as it progresses into utter desaster today, I have dealt with that already previously.)
You are a scientist who’s mission as I see it is to find common ground and a link between science and spirituality, or the physical and the spiritual, and find a scientific explanation for the spiritual within the pyisical and how it all works.
From my standpoint, the two are one, as the two affect eachother in both subtle and profound ways. The physical has but a brief moment to manifest the evolutionary path of the eternel soul on it’s earthly mission.
The brain is the centre of controll of all hpysical functions, and is the reciever/transmitter of the devine existance which is the self or soul, spirit and the creation as a whole. ( There are many excersises aimed at developing, for example, the pineal gland where it is believed that the ability to visualise the spiritual dimention resides.) Scientists have been able to stimulate the pineal gland and other parts of the brain, through vibration, to induce many different experiences that are attributed to the ”Spiritual”, such as out of body (astral projection) experiences, as well as outside entity awareness and so on, all during fully awake sessions.
What does this prove? It proves that every unexplainable spiritual experience has a place and function, somewhere in the body.
Would one lose this ability to see into the spiritual dimention disappear if the pineal gland were removed? Yes ofcourse, because that is it’s function. It doesn’t mean that the spiritual dimention disappears. If you remove the organ, gland or body part related to any physical function……..See where I’m going with this?
This vesel/body is surely God’s greatest work of art. OOOPS sorry…. did I say ”GOD”??
I admire you for wanting to find a path that explains it all in an easy understandable language, because if you do find the link you are looking for and can show exactly how it works, you will truely join the ranks of the most high in this field.
I personally feel and believe that the day of the spiritual scientist is apon us and wish you great success on a very exciting path.
Just for fun I’ll drop another one for you. ”Why do we experience sadness in the regeon of the heart, as well as in the brain”?
I regard myself as a layman to say the least, with an intuition and rumbling gut when it comes to scientific theories and speculation.
With the little practice I have under the belt, I have shuddered at some of the utterings of highly educated and famous minds out there.
”Keep it simple” is my motto.
The moment you are emotional over something, know that, that, is both a physical and a spiritual experience. The two are married into one in a phisical manifestation of the one part that you will never prove or explain scientifically…..”Why are you emotional in the first place”? Why do you feel emotion at all?? ”You” may feel emotional at the sight of a new-born baby, yet someone else out there is capable of slitting a newborns throat without a moments hesitation.
We are all different; Not because we are physically different, but because we are different souls/spirits on different paths and levels of spiritual evolution.
Our bodies are the vessel, the HI-FI speaker as it were. It is our choice what music to play or what station to tune in to, and the level of volume in our personal announcement of who we are.
Part of our individual mission is to conciosly want to be part of this great human existance and do everything we can in life to be a part.
To those that consciously and even deliberately defy all the laws of spirit and body and the universe the buck stops here, the path of that spirit ends here on this earth as it has no place in the universe by own choice. The distructive forces that bring about the will of a glutenous ”God” of human making end here.
Is this harsh and unforgiving?
”NO” The decision to live a human life is a choice of the soul, and the greatest test for the individual soul as a part of the evolutionary path of the soul, is whether it is to be a part of the universe or wants the universe to conform to it’s will and ultimate rule.
It is forbidden to disrupt or alter the path of another. All the functions, actions and plans related to the advancement of self at the expence of others is contrary to all cosmic laws. It is only on earth that the survival of the fittest plays any part of the physical and mental state and existance of humanity, and is one of the great tests of the soul as this notion has been drummed into our daily existance, through a false beliefe that, that is how it is and there is nothing we can do about it.
Survival of the fittest is an animalistic intuitive and purely physical part of our existance. What we as humans have done is to take this natural selective process/function and turned it into a trap filled way of life at an interlectual level, and NO it’s not the same, because we have a choice to kick a man when down or extend a helping hand.
It is during this lifetime that such a soul has the chance and time to re-rout and follow the path of truth and righteousness and realise the true reason for walking this earthly path.
A soul that consciously defies all these laws untill death, seases to exist in a perfect univers.
We must never forget that the soul is who we are and not what we are.
The religeons and spiritual schools that advocate and promote forgivness, help to keep the righteous soul from revenge and off the path of systematic self distruction of the soul.
The Universe deals with all others as the universe/cosmos heals itself and evolves into a complete and perfect state of being.
Our ”’Tit for Tat” reactive life today is spiralling out of controll as we are witness to the death throws of all forms of life governed by those souls who’s ambitions and greed have finally now cought up with them.
Finally today but by no means the end, I would like to talk about choice.
The ability to, and the practice/implementation of choice defines our character and individuality.
We live a life filled with choices. We make choices every second of the day.
”How do I say something, so that my meaning is properly understood” is a choice we make most of all.
Education, experience, intuition, imagination, personality, love, hate, emotion, and so on, all contribute to every word we utter. All atributes to both the physical and spiritual define our uniqueness in the midst of the human collective.
Once again, ”Keep it simple” and try a few excersises if you haven’t already.
The universe is not out to harm or get you, and I can assure you that you are safe on your spiritual journey. The spiritual dimention is a magnificent experience, where you are held in the center of all creation by a force so devine and glorious, everything makes sense.
It is here as you come back down to earth that I’m not so sure and hence a lot of confusion, for some, regarding the dual functionality of the single existance…….and the serious loneliness that comes with the teritory as everything and everyone just totally miss-understands where you are coming from.
All the answers are right before you. You just have to train yourself to see them, in the same way you learned to write and speak and cook, and see and feel and taste and run and stand up when you fall.
I apologise for the length of this post.
Love
Pieter
Hi Pieter,
I’ll keep your deep questions at heart. I am sure I am not the only scientist who is on this track and indeed I have lots and lots of affinities with the hermetic teachings in general, although I have never practiced with a living spiritual hermetic teacher. When I read Steiner I didn’t’ sleep for a few days and got direct transmission from the book (Philosophy of Freedom) , which scared me. I consider this experience as a direct encounter with the Spirit of Steiner and the sensation of proximity didn’t fade a little bit. Steiner is always around. Humm difficult to explain, but I suppose this would qualify as what you call “ practice” except that it was given though a book.
For this lifetime, m Intuition tells me Andrew is the teacher I need, both for the practice of his Teachings, for the living connection, and because I feel he has many of the answers which are timely for me. I cannot tell you why, or how I know this. Just a very strong intuition which seems so far to be valid, in all the situations I am in. As I said I don’t feel that one really chooses one’s Teacher. Life presents the right one at some point, and one has just to recognize him or her on our path.
You seem to be an hermetic Initiate yourself from what I can see. From all I read from you, I will keep this special advice “ keep it simple” very much at heart. Indeed Truth is always simple. It has its own mark and flavor of simplicity and once one has tasted it, one never forgets it. Like a smell, one would recognize it among a thousand of smells.
So at the moment my practice is very simple and consists of meditating as much as I can, doing physics almost desperately, and keeping those big questions in mind until something emerges. This is a pretty tough challenge altogether. But it is simple….
thanks so much for taking the time to write,
lots of love to you !
Catherine
There are really many things I like in your post Pieter, like the following:
“Finally today but by no means the end, I would like to talk about choice.
The ability to, and the practice/implementation of choice defines our character and individuality.
We live a life filled with choices. We make choices every second of the day.”
I feel Andrew would like it too and Steiner as well. It is one thing I indeed like a lot with hermeticism, that it puts lots of emphasis on choice, on what we decide for our destiny, our life.
Recently I was investigating the idea of Perspective as a way to Choice. Sounds to me that somehow the degree of Enlightenment could be defined as the width or the breadth of Perspective. There seems to be a phase transition here, some space is created little by little in our awareness, enabling a wider choice, bigger perspective and then, at some point space becomes so big, so gigantic, that one becomes suddenly extremely light, as if water had become gas suddenly. A gas of awareness . The water of consciousness boils up and at a threshold , the little bubbles of awareness suddenly sublimate and become a full gas. What sounded solid before, all our cultural construct, is becoming porous with awareness. And this awareness goes in all directions at the same time.
What is very funny is that my biggest intention for meditating is to understand this phase transition. I want to stabilize it of course, but I want more to understand it.
Love, C.
Hi Catherine, Yes, the “pre-trans fallacy” is something that I illuminate in the book I’m writing. That wasn’t really what I was trying to point out about the dolphin, ape or whale. But it is an interesting point that higher modes of awareness tend to create an evolutionary pull on the lower modes, so it leads me to ponder how much human consciousness and contact with the more evolved species of the animal kingdom has effected their self-reflective capacities. It is really the same question for humans deeply involved in the energy and effort at an “ashram” or more broadly, the very fact that the ideals of Western democratic countries have been creating a pull, in consciousness, on the Middle East, where dictatorship has been the form of rule. That’s not a statement of superiority, but only to make the point about the fact that consciousness is not “local.” It is, in fact, an indefinable “field” or “space” in which the “levels” and “stages” arise.
Which leads me to answering your question about “what I do” with “my Nonduality.” Because consciousness is a field, everything I have done, am doing or will ever do, has an effect “in consciousness.” Same for you and everyone and everything. When I stated above that I had “intuited Andrew’s teaching” before I “knew” about it, that is a statement that illuminates “what we do”, with what level or stage we are doing it from, has its effects in consciousness. What do you think Andrew is teaching you with his Tenets…responsibility for the process. So whatever I have done in the “past” and what I’m doing now, is creating the future already. “My” Nonduality has an effect “in consciousness” because Nondual Realization is the ENTIRE “INFINITE” FIELD AND ALL PHENOMENON, WHILE SIMULTANEOUSLY BEING UTTERLY TRANSCENDENT OF IT. Any person who’s come this far has a great effect on the average mode, whether you are capable of being aware of it or not.
Andrew’s “path” was completely different than mine on the surface only, his experiences probably very different, but also simultaneously the same. Realization can only be One, the expression Spirit seeks through the Realized Soul is Many. My work, my book, will appear in “physical” form soon enough, but what I’ve done, what it took for me to get here, has helped make the path more clear for those with humility and fortitude enough to walk it, and what I’m doing now only brings more vision to it.
Light, Love and Learning
L. Nada
So, Catherine, let’s revisit your premise one more time, thus stated by you, that;
“enlightened masters should be able to talk about the infinite with scientists or physicists on their terms.”
After all we’ve discussed, and what you have “agreed” upon from your level of awareness – the ego-rational mind – do you still contend this to be so?
Hi Linda
To your post above, to Catherine. I am not sure I understand your question to her.
Isn’t it imperitive for science and spiritualism to find comon ground.
How else will the masses find true meaning to life and the universe and at the same time understand how it all works???
I believe that science are on the thrshhold of major breakthroughs in marrying body and soul.
Numerous scientific discoveries in the past few decades have sertainly helped me to better understand the phisical aspects and reactions to spiritual experiences, and where and how the body and mind and soul all work together.
Love
Pieter
Hi Pieter, Can you express to me which “numerous scientific discoveries” have helped you?
L. Nada
Hi Linda
The studiy/ literature and practice of neurology is something I have had to pay some interest in during my days in corporate business, particularly when dealing with numerous staff members. ( effective training, disciplinary procedures, motivation, work ethics etc etc etc)
I completed a few in-house courses involving a lot of roleplay, which often was centered around emotion, reaction, problem solving and a few other issues which one deales with on a daily basis.
It dawned on me during those days already that there must be more to all of this than a few human resouce/sales/motivational courses and began delving into the spiritual aspect of life in the fast lane as it were.
Not only did I find myself totally unsuited to the lifestyle, but after reading a few articles in one or two magezines and viewing a few TV programmes regarding studies into specific nerve centers in the brain related to all the sences both phisical and psycological and how all this fits together, I became fascinated with the subject and have ever since, with noted breaks inbetween when I get a bit stuck doing other things for some time, tried to apply myself in a different and more spiritual way, giving full recognition to the brain and bodily functions related to the concept of self, or the (ego) as it were, and what makes it all tick so perfectly.
In the present, you have asked me a question that is impossible to answer in just a few words, and therefor I am going to refer you to a simple link on the internet where you will be bowled over and bombarded with incredible information and studies and the like on this fascinating subject.
I could go into the subject a lot deeper, but will just mention or harp on, chemical, hormonal balances, phycology of the visual world, reactive sences such as to truth/lies and so on.
”FASCINATING”!!!!!
All this brought me to the realisation that we are, once again, ”God’s greates creation” and one can only imagine a greater existance than this one.
The link is:
”Emotion” Wikipedia. All you need to do for starters is just read the intro’s, to see where I am coming from.
My personal studies on the subject are still in progress, however I am at this stage confident in my assesment that the body and soul are inexplicably linked, and work together to form a whole and not separate. Expression of the soul can not be without the fully functional system of the body, and visa versa.
The study, practice and life that goes hand in hand with the full development of the soul/spirit to full enlightenment and the ability to bounce between the physical world and the spiritual one, is a different thing all together and not up everyones ally as it were.
In case you have questions about that to, I moved from a junior member of AMORC to studying and attempting, with modorate success, the hermetic practices where I found Franz Bardon to have put easy to learn and understand exersises, where awareness and safeguards are crucial to success
I have also added this link so as not to bombard you with information myself, as you clearly are inclined towards the kind of reaction as in your post.
In other words, ” Don’t take my word for it” check it all out for yourself. I can assure you that you will find many aspects interesting and possibly even relevant for your book.
Another way of finding spiritual answers as to the physical centers of the spirit/soul is to develop, through maditation and self-awareness practices, the chakra’s as brought to us through widely accepted and proven eastern spiritualism. This too is an aspect of the hermetic practices.
I hope that all of this has shone a bit more light on my presence at this forum.
I am a very simple man without a need to complicate my spiritual path, and have walked the proven road so far, and found and have experienced the rewards in deeply spiritual ways.
I love this…….Don’t you?????
Love
Pieter
PS: All my spelling mistakes and gramatical errors are due to a serious adrenalin rush. There you go……. The adrenal gland responsible for so many emotions and reflective reactions.
But I make no apologies Ha ha ha ha ha and so on………………
Hello Pieter, Thank you for your thoughtful and kind responses. I appreciate dialoging with individuals who’ve, at the very least, put effort into trying methods that definitely help reveal the inseparable connection between body and soul as Spirit’s vehicles.
Since I’ve carefully read your writings, I, too, have a recommendation for you as a course of furthering your obvious “spiritual impulse” into a broader, deeper and higher understanding of the current challenges of post-modernism as the collective “we” attempts this further marrying of science and soul, self and culture. It is also “too much” to transmit in this forum, but I can see that you possess the care and intelligence and open heart to welcome an “Integral ” approach to your understanding; Namely Ken Wilber’s “Integral Theory” writings, of which there are so many as to be overwhelmed by the choices, so I’ll suggest perhaps “The Eye of Spirit; An Integral Vision For A World Gone Slightly Mad.” Amazon most likely has good, used versions, but there are many selections, including what I call my “bible”, his “Sex, Ecology and Spirituality”. Full-bodied, sweet, rigorous, fiercely sweeping…say goodbye to any boring, lonely night. (Check your local library, too.)
As far as the suggestions you gave to me, and since we are being honest with one another, I rarely go to Wikipedia, instead preferring more rigorous editing with the information I am seeking. My translation depends much on the integrity of those I am using as confirmation for my journey to enlightenment. All of the research I add to support my writing is aimed at helping to birth a brave, new integral/evolutionary translation for the benefit of all. In other words, what you’ve suggested for me, I have already considered and either included or discarded. But I thank you for your considerate contribution; It means very much to me.
So, that brings me to your initial question of “what I meant” with my question to Catherine. It may be difficult for you to see,(as you used the word “reactionary”), but she and I have been discussing the “Infinite”, as per the quote above prompted. My perspective is Integral/Evolutionary Enlightenment, well, because as I’ve stated, I “became” enlightened without any preconceived notions, not East or West, not “scientific” nor lacking in scientific thought, and after much research have decided that this is the best translation for all. And Catherine states herself as a “research physicist”, a student of A.Cohen’s, someone who’s read K.Wilber, (which we have those two things in common), interested in questions of “science and spirit,” and how the discoveries of both inter-relate.
Most of my dialog with her has been a discussion of the “method and means” of those two inquiries, and since I am already “Infinite Oneness”, I was trying to help her understand that we may both see relevant correlations, but her method is “exterior”, thru measurements, as complex as physics is, and my method was “interior”, as Spirit was always and only the Source demanding I follow Its “path.”
Exteriors are “quantity”, interiors are “quality”. In other words, if I am “wired” to a EEG or some such machine in a lab and have an out-of-body experience, all the EEG will register is changes in my biological body; it produces a measurement, but provides no “spiritual value” or quality to that measurement. Only I can report from my subjective self what happened, what I experienced, and based in my honesty and my verbal skills, you will have to depend on me to report that “quality.” No machine or measurement, even one as complex as physics can produce, is going to give you the value that that experience provided to my interior awakening. That measurement can’t tell you that “God” spoke to me, that angels surrounded me with their fragrance, that Buddha pummeled me with his walking stick; telling me to “wake up!” Physics or science can’t see these things, yet wants to interpret what I’ve witnessed as the random firings of my brain; that indeed, that experience was a “product” of my brain waves, or heart rate and respiration changing, that the experience arose from my body.
That’s called “reductionism”; it is the pernicious byproduct of scientific discoveries. As Integral Theory makes abundantly clear, reductionism, as furthered by the aggressive “scientism” of the twentieth-century, was the rampant assault on the mystical discoveries of the East and West, and “religion” of all types has been filed under “irrational.” We are just now attempting recovery, but “gross” and “subtle” reductionism have infiltrated even the most “holistic” endeavors.
And here I will humbly ask you to check yourself on your translation concerning subtle soul and gross, physical correlates…that you do not turn a subtle affair into a gross arising. I don’t think you have generally in your conversation, but please allow me to state that the reason you may feel an “adrenaline” rush is because the creative drive, or Eros, or evolutionary impulse, is always seeking “union” in all it’s forms, and if you are enjoying or feel challenged or have confidence or all of the above, it is because the Spirit of your being is reaching for awakening thru you, and your physical correlates are responding likewise. That’s called “downward causation”; your spiritual impulse is “higher” within the Hierarchy of Being, it transcends and includes the body. Most people miss the “includes” part, but I have a feeling you won’t.
I’d like now, in conclusion, to address your comment about me being “reactionary.” I am no such thing. I blog here, and only here, because I want to contribute and support Andrew Cohen’s work in the world and Kosmos. His method, and one I wholeheartedly agree with, is intersubjective dialog, co-creative, linguistic sharing. All of my language is geared toward furthering the integral/evolutionary imperative in the world, and sometimes that means providing comments that passionately ask someone to rightly place themselves by their language use. Catherine tried every ploy to get a “reaction” out of me, calling me “sweetie” or whatever, and all the other less than “spiritual” inclinations she allowed herself, but I remained detached from those because she has the ability to understand what I was conveying; it is my job to pass on the “who’s smarter, you or me” BS. I asked her to communicate from her “Authentic Self”, which she then did.
Pieter, we can’t be afraid of “bumping” up against others as we do Spirit’s work in and as the world. One of the tasks at hand, a very important one, is to return the truly “spiritual dimensions” to their rightful place, and while I see Catherine’s yearning for union of “Sense and Soul” (another K. Wilber book), we must honer the fact of science as it continues to make new discoveries, but also, that science must come to the conclusion that “God” can’t be reduced to a particle. I’m sure you agree. And if you venture to read Integral Theory, you will understand, and take part in, a greater way to see and act for the future evolution of all things.
Love and Light and Learning
L. Nada
Pieter, Here’s a quote that will perhaps inspire you to read and Integral Theory book, and which supports what I’ve been saying to Catherine;
“There is, in other words, an important distinction between Truth and forms of Truth. Radical Truth itself is formless, timeless, spaceless, changeless; its various forms, however, the various ideas, symbols, images, and thoughts we use to represent it, ceaselessly change and evolve. Radical Truth is timeless; its various forms exist in the world of time, and are subject to time’s laws. Radical Truth is spaceless, whereas its various forms are space-bound, finite, and contingent. Radical Truth is not one condition among other conditions, but the very Condition of all conditions, the very Nature of all natures, the suchness or thatness or isness of all phenomena and all forms, and is therefore not itself any particular phenomena or form.
Now we can never know all the *forms* of Truth – psychological truth, sociological truth, economic truth, biological truth, and so on. These forms ceaselessly advance and evolve, alter and complexify. And though we can never know all the forms of Truth, we can know Truth itself, or the absolute reality of which all these forms are but partial and approximate reflections. In other words, although we can never know all the facts of existence, we can know the Fact of Existence which underlies and grounds all possible and relative facts, just as, once we know the ocean is wet, we know all waves are wet, even though we may never know each and every wave.
…(Radical) Truth can be known (via direct and and formless intuition-identity), but which can never be adequately or fully captured in any form, doctrine, system, philosophy, proposition, thought or idea (all of which are merely partial, temporal, and finite expressions).” Eye of Spirit
Enjoy!
L. Nada
I do agree with the universe being infinite. Thank you for such an enlightening blog.
Thank you for your wonderful insights.
I have long thought-felt- thatthe belief that this uiniverse came from nothing was sourced by same ego centric notion that the sun revolved around the earth. That evolution began to beget this one universe always seemed narcissistic to me. If this universe evolved from the big bang then there was a process at the big bang already there that didn’t come from nothing. I always thought that what made matter infinitely dense and thereofr explosive was also a part of a process. And if there was such a thing as infinity why would infinite reality have to be ultimately spiritual. The way I have always seen it is that the reality of infinity takes the necessiity for a sequence to be spiritual first and then something out of nothing to be just our limited way of seeing things. I thought that the creation and destruction of Universes was also an infinite process.
So here even while you Andrew and all ofthe pundits were teaching that something came from nothing I was thinking, “Why does it have to be that way?” So glad that this has come up. It gives me more spiritual confidence to trust intuition. And that is eternal. Is it not? This writing of mine actually frees me to experience my own intuitive connection to the INFINITE.
Thank you for you willingess to evolve Andrew. That is your humility. It to frees me to trust in my connection to the infinite. I did say something like this to one other human being a few years ago. She said that she felt intuitively that matter was eternal. At the timethat was a radical thought. Glad to see that everyone is cacthing up to me andBarbara Delia.
Matter is infinite ( Lowest/slowest expression of Energy). Form is finite !!
This is in reference to Bob Berman’s recent article ‘Infinite Universe’ in Astronomy usa.
The ISHA UPANISHAD begins with this verse:
“Aum. Purnamadah purnamidam. Purnat purnamudachyate. Purnasya purnamadaya purnamevavashishyate.”
Which means:
Aum. Infinity is that. Infinity is this. From infinity, infinity has come into existence. From infinity, when infinity is taken away, infinity still remains.
http://www.srichinmoylibrary.com/books/0013/1/6/index.html
http://balbro.com/iam/