and, of course, the overriding need for trust in order to evolve.

this kind of discussion, so eloquently triggered by Andrew’s post, reminds me of the time in the late 60′s when i walked out on a tenured professor position, sold a home and 99% of my possessions in one day at any price anyone offered, bought an old van and moved myself and my two kids to a somewhat-spiritual beach community where conversations were about any topic, very deep, no holds barred as we shared/explained/defended who we really were, what was god, what was the meaning of life, how we wanted to be with each other, etc. everyone was open, trust was supremely high, and together we began stitching together a new view of human life on this planet. many of the discussions were passionate, opposite views were expressed, but gradually over one summer we began constructing a new view of life. there were about 400 people living on the beach at that time and not everyone shared in this level of discussion, but by and large, that is what emerged as we each moved on in our separate ways after the powers-that-be threw us off the beach.
the main point i hope to make is the “no holds barred” nature of our interaction. we no longer felt it necessary to make sure our new ideas “fit” into any aspect of the old paradigm. although the concept of evolutionary impulse had not arisen in our verbal consciousness, i think it was definitely the driving force behind what happened there. and, i think it is that kind of approach that is needed now to make a deep cultural change.

The root and the crown and the other five chakras (if one is working with the 7 chakra model) are indeliably inter-connected. Without one there cannot be the other. This infers a heterarchy – an energetic system that is networked. It is only your hierarchical inferences that chooses to view each chakra as seperated and a whole in its own right.

This is the same as your perception of Spirit – as an aspect of Everything that is seperated from Everything else due to its hierachical purity. Similarly your notion of ego or human consciousness is seen as something seperate to be transcended, to be neglected when in truth it is a chosen feature of our human experience. A heterarchical perspective sees the different levels as integral to a multi-dimensional existence. Each to be enjoyed for what it is.

More harmony as a result of adopting heterachical systems of organisation is an observation and is of potential use as a spiritual practice. Also within the context of this post it is also something that could be adopted as an adaption/survival strategy or in your language an evolutionary impulse. Therefore for me, rather than being a spiritual imperative, it is simply a way of describing the co-creation of additional survival strategies. I would not say it is an either/or, it is simply adding additional nodes to the network. As I say if you wish to continue living your life (and expressing your Spirit) in a hierarchical mode of thinking that is your choice. I have no judgement only a discernment that I would rather not myself.

This conversation does make me wonder to what extent other spiritually-inclined people desire to sustain hierarchies as a perceived solution to our current survival issues.

I agree, the Seer, Shaman, Sage, Healer is (usually) a worthwhile member of a commmunity as is the Cleaner, the Cook, the Builder, the Carpenter, the Mechanic, the Nurse, the Doctor etc etc

So far you have not contributed towards this post in terms of what evolved spiritual values you might put in place in relation to your evolutionary impulse towards hierarchical thinking. Why not enlighten us with your ideas about hierarchical spiritual values and how they can be utilised to create a better future for all.

You spend a lot of time inferring meaning from my comments that isn’t there and refuse to acknowledge the “more embracing, moral, wise, creative, etc. for the sake of the good of all”…

You used the words “more harmonious,” which means, something changed from being LESS harmonious to MORE harmonious. How does that happen, Rohan? To me your own language indicates that you acknowledge that something is naturally reaching to become something else, it’s not content with what it is, it desires transformation from less harmony to more harmony, there is more value with more harmony…

You mentioned the Chakras above in one of your comments; “root chakra to head chakra.” I don’t think you understand what they represent very well if you don’t recognize them as a hierarchy of ascending energy/awareness…The “Root” being least aware and the Crown and beyond being most aware and in Unity with All (Spirit).

In heterarchical/aboriginal cultures, the Shaman is the Seer, the Knower, the Magic Man, who takes care of the tribes harmony with nature. He or She is evidence that consciousness produced a growing tip or leading edge of knowledge, a knowledge of more depth, more embrace on a hierarchy of value, knowledge and depth. The Shaman had psychic and subtle vision, a vision that extends beyond and deeper into more embrace of “reality” than what gross reflecting awareness is capable of. Was the the Shaman a healer or an oppressor? Be honest now!
You see, you lack subtle knowledge of your own motivation, your ego agenda, to think that everything happens along a static line, and this is definitely NOT what nature offers up to the true discerning mind. If you rationalize your language use and attempt to make excuses that “more harmonious” doesn’t mean hierarchically “more”, you are making desperate, hermeneutical errors in an attempt to cover up your natural drive of hierarchical thinking, which essentially means, you’re manipulating language erroneously. How precisely is that harmonious and heterarchical? To any philosophical mind, that is the epitome of insanity!

Here’s another concrete example of natural hierarchy: Atoms become molecules become cells become organisms which become more and more complex life forms until the reptilian brain emerges, then limbic system, mammalian brain(emotional center), and complex triune brain or neocortex capable of language and intentional value systems (among many other things). All of these are WHOLES THAT EXIST IN OTHER WHOLES…Whole/Parts or HOLARCHY

The molecule transcends but includes atoms, cells transcend but include molecules, so on and so forth.

That is an undeniable natural hierarchy of nature, but does the molecule live any less harmonious than the the atom? NO…Does the cell live less harmonious than the atom and molecule? NO…it’s only the complexity of the human levels of consciousness that can decide to denature nature, to act upon nature, which means it’s only and always the drive to reach more complexity, more consciousness, that one finds CHOICE, and choices, as you well know, come in a vast array from self-damaging urges(like drug addiction and alcoholism), to the most embracing compassion and love, like Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr. etc.

And I’m sure you’ll agree, a drug addict is less “harmonious” with nature than a civil activist trying to abolish prejudice. Why is that, Rohan? Why does one person’s Soul reach for unity/harmony with all things and another is determined to set the world on fire and watch it burn? Narcissism is less “harmonious” than selfless service; do we hope the narcissist becomes less so? Do we hope that they change and become less self-focused, less selfish? Be honest, Rohan! That is a VALUE JUDGEMENT that says narcissism if less harmonious…

Because ever-increasing complexity of Spirit’s evolutionary drive created the complex systems of humanity, when individual choice emerged as part of that system, exemplified with ego-rational mind, the human “split” off from your so-called harmony/heterarchy with/as nature, and then decided to act SUPERIOR to nature, and that is precisely where the ego-rational mind has been stuck for thousands of years. But the way to “more harmony” isn’t back, because it’s too late to return to subconsciousness; self-consciousness is the average mode of the majority of humans. The way to “more harmony” is forward, upward, out of the ego and into the soul which cares MORE about alleviating suffering and pain, MORE about living in harmony with nature, MORE about providing equality and dignity for ALL! NOT THE EGO, FRIEND! It cares less, and that is an indisputable fact…just look at the world around you. Choice is part of the Hierarchy of Being, you choose to make a judgement that denies it is doing so, and then point your finger at others and say “NO JUDGEMENTS!” That is insanity and ignorance of your own conditioned identification. You fear judgement and then deny that you are making value judgements. Get real about your fear and your drive to make value judgements, then we can have a real conversation…

Immanuel Kant; “Matter, which appears to be merely passive and without form and arrangement, has even in its simplest state an urge to fashion itself by a natural evolution into a MORE PERFECT CONSTITUTION.” (my caps)

Georg Hegel; “God does not remain petrified and dead; the very stones cry out and RAISE THEMSELVES TO SPIRIT.’ (my caps)

Hierarchical Values are unavoidable, friend! And heterarchy is a value choice!

(;}

It is abit beyond my comprehension why Spirit needs or requires to be more aware of itself unless it is the aspects of Spirit that resides within you or others that wishes to become more aware of itself. As I say this is a worthy spiritual endeavour if that is what a person wishes to do.

However there is no science that suggests that the energy field of Everything or Spirit has a personality or will of its own that is seperate or independent from the life-forms that exist within it. Similarly there is no examples in Nature which points towards Nature having a seperate identity or will of its own that is seperate or independent from the life-forms living within the boundaries of the Earth. If the holarchy theory was correct as a living process then this would be the case but it is not. As such holarchy is simply a way of intellectually classifying different groups of organisms and placing them into a ranked structure according to their perceived role and function. It is interesting how humans have tried to create holarchies in their own lives and how over history they have met their demise. In this respect hierarchical organisations are very much part of our past and our history and in more recent times organisations are experimenting with heterachy and with some good effects. This isn’t a value judgement about hierachies as such but a recognition that hierachies do and have their failings and tend not to be sustainable.

In defence of heterachy, science shows that our ecological systems are heterarchically organised and not in an intellectual way but a living way, science shows that systems of organisation that facilitate greater equality are more benefical to the populace and science shows that we exist within a quantum field which is heterarchically organised and provides the context in which we create our Realities.

Your claim that the promotion of heterarchy as a replacement to hierarchical systems is in itself a hierarchical endeavour is interesting. However this is not my argument. My argument is that Everything is already organised heterarchically and so to become more harmonious with All That Is it is necessary to align ourselves with heterarchical thinking. Consequently this is not a hierarchical shift but a matter of replacing our human-created hierarchies with naturally and cosmically-created heterarchies as evidenced in Nature and as can be discerned by looking deeply into the workings of the Cosmos.

Even our conversation is an example of heterarchy in that different aspects of Spirit are manifesting different mentalities and different physical expressions at different points in the network. What we are (and not trying to do) is build up relations of inter-connectedness between these different nodes. However when viewed through a hierarchical model these differences are ranked and valued according to their perceived merit whilst when viewed through a heterarchical model they are seen to be equal but different aspects of Everything.

My concern is that hierarchy tends to distort the beautiful diversity of Everything into an ugly competition between everything as evidenced in human history. So whilst I acknowledge you are trying to project your hierachical thinking on to me, I do not accept it. Similarly what do you actually mean and infer when you use the word average? Is the builder whose primary concern is construction of material objects and so provides us with the shelter we need any less or more important than the sage who can inform others about their ideas about Reality. Similarly is the farmer with their average consciousness any less important than the saint who can heal the sick. Are not all equally essential.

So when I say us I mean those who wish to see the re-organisation of societies so that everyone is deeply and equally appreciated as part of a deeply inter-connected and deeply inter-dependent system that does not value the activities of one part of the system as more or less important than another but values the inter-reliance between the different choices of activities. So rather than provide inequal rewards according to their ranked position, the system would tend to reward different activities more equally.

So far you have not contributed towards this post in terms of what spiritual values you might put in place in order to realise this nor have you questioned spiritual values per se except to dogmatise heterachical thinking. If you support hierarchical thinking that is fair enough but rather then attacking anything that deviates from your chosen beliefs why not enlighten us with your ideas about hierarchical spiritual values and how they can be utilised to create a better future for all.

For example you mention that Spirit is seeking to become more aware of itself. Are you suggesting that Spirit is seeking to embody a greater degree of hierarchy in the world of matter and mind as part of this yearning. If so, how is this yearning to be and become more hierarchical being and becoming translated into contemporary spiritual values?

Happy co-creating

First; I have adopted and made foundational to my translation the brilliant insights of Ken Wilber’s “Integral Theory” and the teachings of Andrew Cohen’s “Evolutionary Enlightenment” because I find these to be the most accurate, coherent, comprehensive, inclusive, wise, compassionate, forward thinking and leading edge philosophies and teachings currently available; and because I have directly experienced and transformed thru the states and stages/levels of consciousness, have directly experienced the evolutionary impulse or Eros, and have directly experienced Agape or the Involutionary current, and have transformed/integrated Spirit in/as myself, as the Good, True and Beautiful of my own being and therefore, the Being of All.

That said; What you are clearly talking about is “dominator hierarchies” which do indeed oppress, and yes, we are in agreement that this needs to continue to change so that all can live in equal dignity…

but, what I’ve been talking about is Spirit’s natural hierarchy/holarchy, which, even though I’ve clearly stated that this hierarchy is interior stages of development that are increasingly embracing, moral, wise compassionate, committed, responsible, loving and freely expressing care of the world and Kosmos, you’ve clearly chosen to misread and misconstrue that meaning.

I urge you to read “Integral Theory” and open yourself to the most accurate/embracing perspective available.

The world needs morally developed exemplars, and one of Andrew Cohen’s main purposes in this world is to inspire individuals to develop into and embrace as themselves, the Authentic Self. Your heterarchical vision can only be realized through this Self.

You appear to be intelligent and caring enough to at least manage an initial look-see into ideas and philosophies beyond the mythologies of the past, if only you can give up your fear of anything “hierarchical”, perhaps you could even discern, that indeed, you are condemned to search for greater meaning, and that is also your innate drive(Eros) to transcendence and evolution.

Spirit’s Blessings,
Nada (:}

You are espousing a HIERARCHY THAT DENIES HIERARCHY!!! I’ve not done that once, in fact, what I’ve been talking about is INCLUSION, while everything you’ve just stated is EXCLUSION!!! How ironic and hypocritical!

I didn’t once claim that anything I said was “my” theory” or “belief.” I honor the knowledge of the Saints and Sages, East and West alike; I honor the research of modern psychology and philosophy, yes…I take a historical, integral view, because I’m interested in connecting the fragmented, “flatland” reductionism of scientific materialism which is very much a part of the post-modern narcissistic perspective, including post-modern spirituality which believes, in ignorance I might add, that a return to the so-called “indigenous” ways of being and creating are “so wise” and interconnected. If pre-conscious natural heterarchies are so wise, why isn’t that still the average mode of consciousness? I’ll tell you why… Because Spirit EVOLVED out of pre-consciousness into self-consciousness!! IT HAD TO, BECAUSE SPIRIT’S GREATEST DESIRE IS TO BECOME MORE AWARE OF ITSELF THRU US!!!

You’re the one who wants to return to the past, Rohan!

You don’t possess the subtle discernment of your own motivations.

You choose a “heterarchy” as a value system because you’ve weighed and measured other options, consciously or unconsciously, and decided along a line of values, that “heterarchy” IS BETTER! Which means you’ve chosen heterarchy along a line of hierarchical values!!! And you don’t even recognize this as yourself!! You think heterarchy is BETTER than, say, fundamentalist religion or capitalistic endeavors, AND SO YOU’VE CHOSEN ALONG A HIERARCHICAL VALUE SYSTEM!!

Nobody’s twisting your arm forcing you to blog on this site, and no, I will not take a position or perspective that limits me to your idea. I didn’t once ask, “Are you with us or not?” I’m simply trying to counter your idea with more inclusive and contemporary knowledge so that anyone reading these comments can compare your quite identified opinion with more “spiritually scientific” research, which is probably why you think it is “cold.”

Learn to laugh at yourself, Rohan…that is the beginning of Wisdom

Peace (:}

I really appreciate that you have become softer but this hierarchical perspective of yours is to be honest with you an instant turn-off for the average person. Not because you are superior and they do not wish to acknowledge that or because you are wise and they do not wish to appear ignorant but because there is nothing of yourself in your words. Just judgements and more judgements in order to sustain some holier-than-thou perspective.

Your opinion about Spirit and its involution/evolution is nothing more than your experience of Spirit. For me there is no imperative that is driving me relentlessly to greater complexities of wholeness. I specifically asked you to provide me with some reality-based evidence to back up this involutionary process you describe. I am sorry to say this but I am beginning to doubt your ideas are grounded in any reality other than the one in your own imagination.

Also for what reason does your conception of Spirit wish to manifest itself at all if it timelsss, deathless, spaceless. It makes no sense whatsoever and to say this Spirit of yours chooses to manifest itself in order to involve. WHY?

I am afraid these hierarchical explanations do not provide any suitable answers at all and whilst I can just about acknowledge we are on the same side, as Andrew and other evolutionaries point out, we are looking for a new evolved way to view ourselves and a new evolved way of conceiving the sort of values we should be leading our lives by.

Your historicism is not looking towards the future but a perennial looking back to the past. Your models have not worked as well as expected and so now we wish to design, co-create, co-evolve new ones rather than procrastinate about the past.

Are you with us or not?

Here’s another hierarchy simplified, perhaps you’ve heard of it, the Perennial Philosophy; Matter, Body, Mind, Soul and Spirit;

Matter is the least aware level of Spirit/consciousness, Body is more aware, transcending/including Matter, Mind is more aware than Body, but transcending/including Body, Soul is more aware of Matter/Body/Mind, transcending/including them all, and Spirit is All, Existing As and Transcending and Including All. As each level is transcended/included, consciousness is expanding, becoming more embracing, unified and whole, more creative at the level of the “growing tip” or “leading edge” of consciousness itself, because Spirit IS that leading edge, and is trying to pull all the lower levels along and up into He/She/It. This is, of course, a matter of direct experiential disclosure as one’s own SELF, which is all things, and no-things, simultaneously.

The reason Spirit is the only Ultimate Whole is because Pure Spirit, while it chooses to manifest (Involution) and express itself in and as Time and Evolution, is The Timeless, Deathless, Unborn, Uncreate, Unmanifest Ground of All Being. Again, this can be, and has been disclosed to some Souls throughout human history. Every Sage is that ultimate expression of both the Ground and Stages of evolutionary unfolding, the ultimate expression of Eternity and Time.

Actual ULTIMATE TRANSFORMATION will eventually be obligated to create a TRANSLATION to express what Spirit has disclosed within/as the person. As an example, Andrew Cohen’s translation to others is Spirit’s expression in/through/as him, which is precisely what every person is experiencing as themselves, except Andrew has developed and become more aware of/as Spirit than the average mode, or ego, is capable of encompassing. He knows, as well as I do, that the ego-rational mind is a powerful sticking point, an intense identification that causes people to lash out in defensiveness and falseness. This is why one of his main efforts is to get people to communicate from a higher place than their egos, with their “Authentic Self” which is the Self that really cares about the Kosmos, because it is aligned with/as the Kosmos.

You and I know that human activity on planet Earth seems to be more detrimental than beneficial to it. Humans, as the most conscious beings on the planet, I’m sure you will agree, have to turn the tide on the destructive activity and find more, and the most, sustainable modes of co-living/creating. But without actual transformation out of the average mode or ego-rational mind identification, even “heterarchical” models will fail. The ego is a separate-self, a contraction away from more embracing involvement and responsibility, and perhaps “self-actualized” egos are most capable, but do you know how many people have even reached the growing tip of the ego capacity? A very small percentage of the world’s populations.

I must go for now but will address your other post later…

Also what evidence in Reality is there that everything is a composite whole that embraces all its parts. As far as I am aware the human organism for example is renewing itself every 7-10 years. Where are the parts coming from to enable this if it assumed that every type of organism is an integrated whole with its component parts.

Similarly how is planet Earth evolving holarchically to reflect the emegence of a greater Cosmic whole especially when considering that different people whether they are aware of it or not are trying to co-create contradictory ideals. Surely a belief in holarchy assumes that the emergence of greater wholes is automatic and so transpersonal as you suggest as per your hierachical model of spiritual development. How is this transpersonal activity manifesting itself here and now as the emergence of a greater whole.

As I said in my previous post, if you wish to believe in a Hierarchical Spirituality that is totally fine by me. Holarchy has no real basis in Reality but then I suspect that you believe that most of Reality is an illusion anyway.

I have heard the oft repeated argument supporting hierarchy and they make no real sense when deconstructed. For example how do you explain how a centralised function of creation relates to its creation. And how do explain how an aspect of this creation can have the authority to speak on behalf of this centralised function of creation. As I say your Spirit may or may not be guiding you towards a belief in hierarchy. Mine is certainly guiding me towards heterarchy

I have no problem with the developmental stages of human consciousness but not sure how this relates to the wisdom argument. Intuition for example is not dependent self-reflective consciousness.

As I point out

E energy/Spirit of Everything
//
M mass/Body of Everything
C2 light/Mind of Everything

which pretty much synthesises the non-dual/dual relationship.

Forgive me if you find my language use abit confusing. I am still developing my understanding and insights into Spirit or at least my Spirit. It is indeed quite a complicated affair but in short my Spirit manifests itself as a Body/Mind continuum. My Spirit and hence my Body and Mind are inherently organised heterarchically. This I know from the way I am organised and the way my external Reality is organised including the Cosmos. As I said, hierarchies do exist as do types of holarchy for example some individual galaxies can be seen to be holarchic in a fashion but I have never in my many experiences of Spirit known a centralised function within Reality which points towards an ultimate hierachy or ultimate holarchy. In fact quite the opposite, my experiences intuit that Spirit is not only the creator and creation simultanously (E=MC2) but there is no over-arching centralised function of creation. This means that Everything is created as a result of co-creation with different aspects of Spirit having chosen different functions and capacities. Amazingly this is mirrored in Naturewhich leads me to believe that our fellow life-forms are indeed intelligent and possibly more evolved than ourselves.

Of couse this, as I said earlier, is all a matter of opinion when comparing one person’s experiences with another. I feel when people communicate within a heterarchical frameworks then this facilitates a sharing but when people communicate within a hierarchical framework then this tends to facilitate competition which I am afraid I feel you are engaged in.

For this reason I could not work with you. So I suggest you remain with your hierarchically-based friends and collegues and co-create communities for yourself so you can be hierarchical with one another.

Happy co-creating.