December 27, 2011
Questioning Our Spiritual Values
Those of us who are interested in the spiritual dimension of evolution and how it affects our shared culture, need to start questioning so many of our assumptions. Today, although we are well into the twenty-first century, too many of our progressive psycho-spiritual values and practices haven’t changed very much in the last thirty or forty years. Back in the glory days of the late 1960s and 70s, when a real cultural revolution was sweeping the Western world, diving into our psychological interiors—developing sensitivity, inclusivity, and compassion—and mystically awakening to the oneness of all things were truly bold and radical steps forward. But most of us anywhere near the leading edge of cultural evolution today have, at least to a significant degree, already developed in these ways. We are, for the most part, highly sensitive; we have rare capacities for empathy, tolerance, and inclusivity; and we already know, explicitly or implicitly, philosophically or spiritually, that we are all interconnected.
I strongly feel that what is needed in our time is a psycho-spiritual perspective and practice that is very different. Indeed, there are much deeper and more culturally relevant ways in which we need to connect, spiritually and philosophically. Now, instead of being so concerned with healing the wounds of the past, it is time for a spirituality that is fueled by an overwhelming sense of urgency about what’s possible in the future. It is time to move beyond an approach to spiritual practice that too often has become reduced to just another form of narcissistic self-absorption. In a culture so infatuated with extreme individualism, it is time to get over ourselves, once and for all, for the biggest reason that there is: to awaken wholeheartedly to the evolutionary impulse, so that we can create the world anew.
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Andrew Cohen is a spiritual teacher, cultural visionary, founder of EnlightenNext, and the author of 
Good points and observation. Say more, what do you have in mind Andrew, specifics. Once awake or relatively awake where do you see the pressure points to positive change, in the best sense of that term. That is the discussion we should be having!!!
David Meggyesy
Thanks Andrew. Here is a concrete suggestion for the next step of the future cultural development. In my view the post-modern state of consciousness has not yet transcended and included Trust.
I have tremendous difficulties to trust and even among good spiritual groups, it is very often very difficult to be vulnerable in such a way that we can open the depth of our Soul to others.
Pierre Teilhard de Chardin was saying :
“ we don’t need a body to body connection, neither a mind to mind connection, but a heart to heart connection…” this is a perfect saying [ my translation from French maybe doesn't give this sentence justice. ]
I would just add that a soul to soul connections so deep that souls will immediately take fire at each other’s contact, is desperately needed at the moment. That level of fire is needed so that
the next phase tradition to occur.
The next step is a step of Trust and creative-Soul-to-Soul -“friction”.
Ok, if you need some assistance, count me in! Otherwise, I’ll continue to strive to “be the change” as I work with communities. Best wishes to all!
Thanks Andrew,
Although I’m absolutely committed to co-creating the future, my own journey has actually taken me back, way back to some early stuff that significantly affected my willingness to be open-hearted. It has been liberating. Doesn’t feel narcissistic. But I guess no narcissist believes that what he’s doing is narcissistic, huh?
It’s like going back to the future.
I don’t want to be too quick to toss all that personal work out. I see way too much transpersonal stuff going on over top of developmental fault lines, that under pressure, end up swallowing up creative possibilities.
Thank you Andrew for your clear thinking and bold leadership. You’ve made a big difference in my life. I am very grateful.
You got it! Enough already. I’m wound-processed and sensitive to the max – now what? Why bother being so evolved if not to create a new world?
Let’s create like beings possessed with what is possible, ready to come together in the present with our unique gifts and collaboratively (as in passionately, sovereignly in synergy NOT compromisingly) bring it into reality. Your words affirm my restless, ecstatic spirit and open heart!
Ye-e-e-ehaw!
Andrew, you are so right on with your insights as to what the next step should be. I lived in the glory days and was very passionate about helping bring to fruition what was taking place!! Now it is time to go into the resesses of our heart and listen to SPIRIT and to live and act with compassion toward ALL our sisters and brothers.
I enjoyed waht Catherine shared above. Teilhard de Chardin’s vision was right on !! It’s sad that not too many people believed what he had to say when he walked earth and proclaimed his message!!
Oh, when will we ever learn!
I agree. However, if individuals do not own their own shadows, then what? Sometimes one has to muck through the mire to be able to look to the future. I am very ready to create a future of universal love, peace, compassion, and sometimes get impatient….but then, when that happens it seems like I get whacked with a little more of the aspects of myself that I don’t like to acknowldge. Boy am I ready to move on….not so sure that it is narcissim but I am ready to get on with moving forward into Heaven on this beautiful planet Earth!
There is an impending opportunity on its way to greet us and the big question is: will the 100th monkey have joined the rest of us so that we will be ready? Our spiritual evolution is cornering the idea that we really are just energy . . . molecules moving at different speeds, some so slow as to appear solid, others so quick that we cannot detect their presence. Healing the past requires that the energy of today rearrange its perception of that past; other than that, we must move on. No amount of rethinking can change anything except what happens next.
I think the shift we are looking for is a transition from predominantly hierachical models of social organisation to more and more heterarchical models.
We need to change our social, economic and political systems to mirror the heterarchy of Oneness rather than mirror the hierarchy of God/man. We are not distinct from our creator, we are the creator. This is the same as saying we are not distinct from pure consciousness, we are pure consciousness. The former sets up beliefs in the spiritual legitmacy of hierarchies whilst the latter sets up beliefs in the spiritual legitimacy of heterarchies.
Presently for me, it is my deepest truth that Everything is Consciousness including God whether it exists or not. This is not shared by many of our fellow humans who still feel that their deepest truth is that God is Everything, not consciousness.
Therefore any transition will also need a new view of religion and we know how attached many people feel to their belief in a hierarchical relationship between God and everything else. Even our use of language has adapted to it.
There is no doubt in my mind that over time, heterarchical cultures would be more inclusive, more open-hearted, more compassionate and so would facilitate more trust. Hierarchies tend to create selfishness, self-absorption, narcissism and dysfunctional individualism. In hierachies, people, our fellow creatures and our resources simply become pawns in a bid to climb higher up the hierachy in order that one feels more empowered, even to be closer to God if the protestant work ethic has anything to go by.
Ecologically speaking, our fellow creatures have already got heterarchy. They can use hierarchies but they appreciate the heterarchical context in which these hierarchies are situated. All we humans largely know is hierarchies but without the heterarchical context.
Heterachies are built upon principles of inter-connectedness, inter-dependancy and mutual reliance and manifest as independant and inter-connected nodes within a unified network, each part playing its role in maintaining the sustainability of the network as a whole so all are valued as equal since without one there cannot be the other. An emphasis on hierarchy distorts this picture of the ecological and cosmological world in which we truly live and instead the different nodes are valued inequally on factors such as class, ethnicity, status etc.
This is effectively the psycho-spiritual grid of our present experience which leaves us free to choose to what extent we create heterarchies and to waht we extent we create hierarchies both in our minds and in the world around us and in so doing determine the cultural systems we create.
Our present usage of hierarchies is causing a burden not only upon ourselves but on all life. People only feel secure if they are high up the hierarchy, from where they can control and dominate others. So hierarchies also exagerate insecurities and individual strengths and weaknesses. We look up and we look down, making sure we have got what our little ‘we’ needs without much awareness of what the big ‘WE’ needs. Our minds become preoccupied with how to get what we think is our rightful share.
Heterachies would look like meetings where all concerned can meet, share perspectives and togethermake decisions rather than the dressed up consultations we get now. In heterarchies, we feel we can change the rules for the better, using common sense rather than rhetoric. In heterarchies, if we need to adapt we allow ourselves to adapt and change the rules accordingly rather than remaining attached to convention and tradition. In heterachies, we look to the future with a good understanding of our past rather than ignore what we would rather not know.
So I think heterachy is the key principle of the next evolutionary phase of our human experience. From a perspective of heterarchy, potential comes alive, creating the spaces in our minds in which we can envisage a better more adapted future.
“ In heterachies, we look to the future with a good understanding of our past rather than ignore what we would rather not know.”
Completely agree with your beautiful post. It is enough to see how we treat our old people to see that we have a HUGE problem with the past. We stupidly believe that we can make real progress without understanding the past and rely on what it can teach us.
Our society NEEDs “Elders”, it is crucial that the young generations take advantage of their experience.
I agree. In a society in which the pursuit of growth and wealth are the norm then our elder folk become superfluous to need and what a waste that is and how frustrating it must be. I envisage that in heterarchical societies all are valued past present and future and not just the prominent few but the majority many.
How much I have learnt from children and their thoughts and perceptions coming from an innocent perspective and sometimes innate natural wisdom.
And the same can be said of the elder folk who remind us of how things have been and so can be again in the future. And of course, where would we be if we didn’t have the elder folk who have already experienced their failures and success and the supporting words or the loving care that they can give because of their experiences.
Humility and the recognition that we are all in this together comes to mind.
Thank you, Rohan! A basis for developing this heterarchies in human civilization is the respect and recognition that humanity is not alone on ‘this trip’ called Evolution/biological Ascension but in codependent interrelatedness with all the other species on Earth and in the Universe … that we are part of a much bigger process, Earth being a special focal point.
I totally agree Utah. Without bringing into the concept of Society the rest of Nature we are not helping to create heterarchies in our lives but sustaining the increasingly dysfunctional hierarchies in our lives. In this respect, they need to be entitled to the same level of rights that we may or may not enjoy. By may or may not enjoy, I mean that in hierarchies those above the bottom enjoy the realisation of more rights than those at the bottom.
I appreciate the effort you put into your response, Rohan, but feel perhaps your model would benefit from a nondual and evolutionary perspective.
First; CONSCIOUSNESS IS SPIRIT (or God,Brahman,Tao,etc.), and while I can recognize that you may be speaking of “God, the patriarchal protector and punisher of sinful acts”, it would behoove your philosophy to understand that…
Second: A NATURAL SPIRITUAL HIERARCHY EXISTS, and is the very consciousness you enjoy now! Your philosophy of “heterarchy” is an idea that is a typical, post-modern, anti-hierarchy perspective; “post-modernism” being the “level” of average-mode consciousness on the HIERARCHY of evolutionary consciousness structures, meaning, you are speaking from that average mode and your philosophy emerged from it. In other words; your philosophy is an expression that is only possible because the Spiritual Hierarchy exists. And perhaps you would prefer the word “Holarchy”, since every “new” level of consciousness transcends but includes its predecessor. The consciousness you enjoy now is only a temporary movement, and this is what Andrew knows. He is trying to inspire individuals to consciously MOVE consciousness in an agreed upon, morally based effort to create a future more aware of our responsibility to Spirit, as Spirit.
And children don’t have innate, natural wisdom; they have undeveloped spontaneity based in narcissistic needs, and that is not Wisdom. Wisdom means you have to become conscious enough to suffer your separation from your own True Nature, or Self, and then have the fortitude and commitment to follow all the movements of consciousness and it’s variety of energy structures until you find only the Emptiness of the Primordial Ground, or Self, and that takes maturity and the development of the personal self until that personal self feels its own limitations and begins transcending them. Childhood is not the “place” where this happens. If we use the common example of the Buddha’s life, if indeed he was born “wise” or evolved enough to become enlightened in that lifetime, he still had to mature, question his culture, his family, leave his wife and child, try all sorts of practices until he exhausted them, and finally sit down, close his eyes and follow all that arose until he found only his won Emptiness.
Think about it! and Happy New Year to All! Looking forward to Andrew’s talk today, January 1, 2012!
excuse my typo…I meant “own Emptiness.”
I see you are an adherent of hierarchy and the hierarchical God that this evolves. In that respect, I sense the seperation you feel from Spirit as if it is something that you have yet to connect with in order to awaken.
I am afraid to say Nada you have been caught in the biggest guru trip going. Convince the students that they are not awake and so seperated from Spirit and then I as teacher will re-connect them and as a result create a retinue or following of admirers. A typical hierachical practice and one that needs an adherent to be willingly subserviant to the mind of another. An then unfortunately this is then passed on to the next willing student. Average mind average mode are then the necessary phrases required in order to sustain the hierarchy. However, as an integral part of Spirt and the mind and body that you have choosen to inhabit this is entirely your choice but I am afraid this is not my chosen path and never will be.
Non dual is encompassed in
E energy/Spirit of Everything
//
M mass/Body of Everything
C2 light/Mind of Everything
Evolution is a mixture of adaption and movement. WE can’t be still for a moment if you have noticed so we are always evolving or devolving to some degree or another. Sometimes it is particularly emphasized when environmental adaption becomes an important issue due to economical, political, social or cultural reasons – I include religion in the last.
Emptiness is stilling the MInd in particular and enables accesss to the Spirit within and without. Emptiness of the Primordial Ground is one aspect of this and Emptiness of the Primordial Heavens or Sky is another. THe former relates to the root chakra and the latter relates to the crown. For sure when they are open it is pure bliss
, such is the nature of Spirit.
Children do have wisdom. They know intuitively whom to trust, whom to learn from, whom to avoid. Sometimes this innate wisdom can be damaged like most things. Wisdom is found in all stages of life from dependency, co-dependency, independency and inter-dependency. Without it how do we move from one to the other.
Heterarchical Spirituality is certainly deeper, more empowering and more awakened in my deepest experience of Spirit of which I have had many. Hierarchies have their usefulness but the deepest spiritual freedom is when we realise we and Everything together is Spirit, Mind and Body and that together and individually we co-create Everything. So the power to change, mediate and transform is held within us all together and individually. This means the responsibility of All That Is is ultimately are own, not some Supreme Being that your Hierarchical Spirituality would lead you to assume.
Heterarchical Spirituality is not only a post-modern conception but one shared by indigenous communities that still just about exist despite some of the violent tyrannies of the more hierarchical aspects of Modernism. Heterarchy is especially prevalent in Nature and the symbiotic relationship between all life-forms on Earth is a testament to that. Ancient religions were often based on the Heterarchy of Nature as displayed by pagans but again the violent hierarchies of some aspects of Christianity and Islam almost led to their extinction.
So it is ironic that Modernism filled with its violent abusive and condescending hierarchies has or already is leading to the collapse of human civilisations and as a result movements for conscious change/evolution have emerged.
Are you suggesting we continue co-creating a future filled with hierarchies so that the violent tyrannies may continue.
I am sorry Nada but you will have to count me out on that one.
Happy co-creating with love, peace and respect for all our relations.
Hierarchies within heterarchies – very interesting concept especially when it is so obvious in nature. we are all One from a heterarchy context/perspective, but within that Oneness, there are clearly hierarchies of abilities, intentions, experience, etc.
and, of course, the overriding need for trust in order to evolve.
this kind of discussion, so eloquently triggered by Andrew’s post, reminds me of the time in the late 60′s when i walked out on a tenured professor position, sold a home and 99% of my possessions in one day at any price anyone offered, bought an old van and moved myself and my two kids to a somewhat-spiritual beach community where conversations were about any topic, very deep, no holds barred as we shared/explained/defended who we really were, what was god, what was the meaning of life, how we wanted to be with each other, etc. everyone was open, trust was supremely high, and together we began stitching together a new view of human life on this planet. many of the discussions were passionate, opposite views were expressed, but gradually over one summer we began constructing a new view of life. there were about 400 people living on the beach at that time and not everyone shared in this level of discussion, but by and large, that is what emerged as we each moved on in our separate ways after the powers-that-be threw us off the beach.
the main point i hope to make is the “no holds barred” nature of our interaction. we no longer felt it necessary to make sure our new ideas “fit” into any aspect of the old paradigm. although the concept of evolutionary impulse had not arisen in our verbal consciousness, i think it was definitely the driving force behind what happened there. and, i think it is that kind of approach that is needed now to make a deep cultural change.
Yes! Andrew, I for one am just aching to be a part of the solution toward the evolution of consciousness and a better world. All my years of spiritual study and personal growth have been illuminating, but every step was accompanied by my question to myself, “how does this personal growth help others as well as myself?” It is meaningless, unless I can put it to good practical use in the world. Where do I begin? Who do I join with? Where do I work? What do I do? Right now I work in hospice, as a bereavement coordinator, helping people come to terms with death and loss. Knowing my own nothingness really helps me in this work. But I want to do more.
Getting over ourselves for the biggest possible reasons, that sounds pretty darn good, makes sense and has integrity and generosity. Plus it just seems to be what is needed…….
Love, Joanna
I think for men and women the approach to become conscious and awake wholeheartedly to the evolutionary impulse are different paths to follow.
It is a fact of life that a woman first has to seek inside herself to consciously free and heal her feminine part of her soul. A path she has to take by herself. In contrary to men. We still live in a man’s world.
What I hear you talking about is a natural outcome of clearing personal
issues so that we open our minds and hearts to seeing and tuning into what is around us: how do we treat ourselves, others, our planet? We
are making choices all the time…are they CONSCIOUS choices? I
find the Universe has no problem providing situations to respond to if
we are awake. I believe where we can help one another is through
being a deep listener when someone puts forward an idea for change.
Too often we are in our heads critiquing rather then listening. Once a
person feels listened to their own voice becomes stronger and ideas
begin to flow. Love the work you are doing…Love IS the work you are
doing.
While I totally agree with the concept of “looking forward”, I simply do not believe that is possible until the unconscious wounds of the past are healed and integrated. It seems it must be a “both/and” framework—-past and then future.
On 12/27/11 6:57 PM, “senjohnv@aol.com” wrote:
FOR THE MOST PART I AGREE WITH UR CRITIQUE OF THE CURRENT STATE OF OUR LIVES & TIMES & POLITICS & HUMAN POTENTIAL -
– EXCEPT THAT I FIND MYSELF UNCOMFORTABLE IN THESE 4 ASPECTS OF UR PROPOSAL:
1ST – I PERSONALLY REALLY HAVE NO FAMILIARITY WITH ‘SPIRITUAL.’
2ND – WHILE I SHARE UR BEING PROFOUNDLY OPPOSED TO ‘extreme individualism,’
– I AM PROFOUNDLY DEEPLY COMMITTED (NOW WELL INTO 45 YEARS IN MY SEARCHING) TO ULTIMATE ‘INDIVIDUALITY’ – -
– MOST LIKELY BEST NAMED & DESCRIBED BY ONE OF MY MENTORS – ABRAHAM MASLOW – ‘FULL SELF-ACUALIZATION;’
3RD – WHILE I’VE NOT READ A LOT OF UR WRITINGS -
– I’M SURPRISED THAT I HAVE NOT FOUND YOU ADDRESSING WHAT IS ‘THE MOST PROFOUND ISSUE OF OUR LIVES & TIMES’ -
– IDENTIFIED BY VERY CONSERVATIVE POLITICAL ECONOMIST THOMAS SOWELL (OF STANFORD’S HOOVER INSTITUTE) -
- ‘WHAT HE NAMES, ‘THE CONFLICT OF VISIONS THAT BURNS BENEATH JUST ABOUT EVERY HOT BUTTON SOCIAL & POLITICAL ISSUE OF OUR LIVES AND TIMES’ .. . .
AND THAT IS THE CONFLICT REGARDING OUT VISION OF OUR SELVES, OUR H UMAN NATURE & HUMAN POTENTIAL -
– WHICH UNDERGIRDS + INFORMS + LARGELY DIRECTS OUR EVERY EXPECTATIONS – + EVERY CHOICE – IN OUR DEALING WITH EACH OF OUR SELVES, AND WITH EACH/EVERY OTHER PERSON WE ENCOUNTER IN OUR LIVES -
– FROM THE MOST INTIMATE TO THE MOST INTERNATIONAL!’
WHEREAS SOWELL GOES ON TO SAY, ‘AND OF COURSE, SINCE WE KNOW THAT WE ARE INNATELY INCLINED TOWARD EVIL,
– WE KNOW WHAT MEANS WE HAVE TO USE (SHAME + GUILT + FEAR) TO ENABLE US TO REALIZE OUR POTENTIAL!~
TO THE CONTRARY, I GO ON TO SAY, ‘AND OF COURSE, SINCE WE KNOW THAT WE ARE INNATEL INCLINED TOWARD GOOD,
– WE KNOW WHAT (ENTIRELY CONTRARY – LOVE & ACCEPTANCE & NURTURANCE) TO ENABLE US TO REALIZE OUR POTENTIAL.
MY ‘FAITHFUL’ (AS OPPOSED TO HIS ‘CYNICAL’) VISION OF OURSELVES:
– WAS 1ST NOTICED & RECOGNIZED & DOCUMENTED & NAMED & BROADCAST WAY BACK IN 1970 – BY NOTED FUTURIST WILLIS HARMAN IN HIS WONDROUS ESSAY, ‘THE NEW COPERNICAN REVOLUTION.’
– HAS BEEN (IN MY EXPERIENCE & KNOWING) BEST DEFINED BY ANOTHER OF MY MENTORS, PIONEERING HUMANISTIC PSYCHOLOGIST CARL ROGERS, AT THE WORKSHOP WE CO -LEAD AT UC IRIVINE IN 1985 -
– ‘I’VE BEEN DOING PSYCHOLOGY FOR 60 YEARS, AND I COME TO BELIEVE THAT WE HUMAN BEINGS ARE INNATELY INCLINED TOWARD BECOMING LIFE-AFFIRMING, CONSTRUCTIVE, RESPONSIBLE & TRUSTWORTHY!’
4TH – I DON”T FIND IN WHAT I’VE READ OF YOUR STATEMENTS & CRITIQUE WHAT I HAVE COME TO KNOW – FROM THE INSIDE OUT – THE ROLE OF OUR BODIES – IN THE ENTIRETY OF OUR FULL SELF-ACTUALIZATION AND ‘FULL PERSONHOOD’ – ‘
– AS INTRODUCED TO ME BY MY MAJOR THERAPIST MENTOR – STANLEY KELEMAN -
(WHO DURING OUR VERY 1ST SESSION, UPON MY GETTING UP MY NERVE TO TELL HIM I WANTED TO WORK WITH HIM,
REPLIED: ‘SURE. NOW WHAT I’M GOING TO DO IS TEACH YOU HOW TO EXPERIENCE UR SELF DIFFERENTLY!’
THEN HE WAS KNOWN AS A MAJOR WEST COAST PRACTITIONER OF WILHELM REICHIAN-BASED – ‘BIOENERGETICS’ – +
– NOW HE HAS GIVEN HIS THEORY AND PRACTICE THE NAME OF ‘FORMATIVE PSYCHOLOGY.’
UNTIL ABOUT A CENTURY AGO WHEN FREUD AND JUNG ET AL DISCOVERED & INTRODUCED US TO OUR OWN INTERIOR,
– WE HAD NO KNOWLEDGE, MUCH LESS FAMILIARITY, REGARDING ALL OF THAT – - +
– NOW – CONSCIOUSNESS RE INTERIOR & EMOTIONS IS WIDESPREAD, ALMOST EVERYWHERE.
I’VE COME TO KNOW THAT THE NEXT STAGE OF OUR RECOVERY & HEALING – INTO BECOMING A TRULY WHOLE EMBODIED PERSON -
– IS TO BE FOUND OUT BY GOING DEEPLY INSIDE INTO OUR BODIES, AND RE-OPENING THEM TO AS MUCH PREGNANT KNOWLEDGE & CONSCIOUSNESS (INCLUDING DIMENSIONS OF ‘IDENTITY,’ SELF ESTEEM,’ CHARACTER,’ INTEGRITY,’ AND TRULY THE AU THOR OF MY OWN BEING & BECOMING – A FULLY SELF-ACUALIZED PERSON.
WISHING YOU WELL ON UR OWN JOURNEY, ANDREW COHEN – -
JOHN VASCONCELLOS
CALIFORNIA STATE SENATOR (retired – not yet entirely)
38 YEARS REPRESENTING THE HEART OF SILICON VALLEY
CO-FOUNDER OF THE VLP (VASCONCELLOS LEGACY PROJECT)
– ADVANCING A WHOLLY NEW FAITHFUL ‘POLITICS OF TRUST’
Bravo Rohan Achnay! Wonderful exposition! I wonder though, upon close examination, experiential & within disparate quotes, I find arising a collective consciousness that will transform our soiled nest, one-by-one, eventually. To meet wisdom face-to-face–I Thou–is astonishing yet actually not all the uncommon. Being ‘elderly’ @ 71 I don’t expect to see in person but I know it is coming.
“Destiny is no matter of chance. It is a matter of choice: It is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved.” –William Jennings Bryan
. . . we will prevail.
Physics informs us that creation in linear, not cyclical, yet the symbol of infinity, the curve upon which we reside temporally is Creation itself. Consciousness is vaster than we can anthropomorphize, define or contain.
Thank-you Jack
I certainly could not have done it without the help of others.
I agree that a collective consciousness is slowly forming and although I am 47 I doubt also I will see the fruition of the changes we seek. In my mind this is part of a larger cultural transition from modernism to ? in the same way modernism came out of fuedalism. Maybe Hegel was right ater all and our institutions will finally mirror the great Oneness of God.
I wish to also post the following if I may to supplement cultural hierarchy with a spiritual heterarchy
E energy Spirit of God
//
M mass Body of God
c2 (speed of) light Mind of God
I insert this because I was concerned that the biggest obstacle to co-creating a better future for ourselves and others will be hampered by religion but I had a lovely exchange with Brian and I felt we were able to both embrace a heterarchical God perspective rather than a hierarchical God perspective which was so relieving, for me at least. By this I mean we were able to acknowledge that Everything Is God (or God Is Everything) so together and individually we are all God. At this level we are obviously unifying opposites whether it be the individual and the social or the interior and the exterior. When this occurs, God is but a name to describe Everything so Everything could also be called Allah or Brahmin or whatever name one chooses. So if we can be sure that when we use these names we are all talking about the same thing, that being EVERYTHING then effectively we have found a way of bridging all religions within the paradigm of Oneness. Of course this means that not only are we together and individually the life-force of Everything (the Spirit of God) and the creation of Everything (the Body of God) but together and individually we are also the creator of Everything (the Mind of God) which is certainly my deepest truth.
This perspective also validates those that say Consciousness is present in Everything since yes this is the Mind of God. It also validates those that say Matter is present in Everything since yes this the Body of God and it also validates those that say Energy (or life-force) is present in Everything since yes this is the Spirit of God (also this is where the traditional and hierarchical usage of the name God is commonly used so could also read – this perspective also validates those that say God is present in Everything since yes this is the Spirit of God – but this hierarchical usage no longer makes sense when using the name God within a heterarchical context)
So in my mind, whatever causes and presents itself as an obstacle to this understanding of ourselves as the Spirit, Body and Mind of God, whether of past origins, present origins or future origins we/I must overcome it in order that one by one we inhabit our rightful place in the heterarchy of God.
Great thoughts from Andrew & commentators. Here’s my abridged commentary.
Our personal tastes, needs & readiness are all over the map, so people will obviously have different perceptions of what needs to be taken care of, past wounds, work toward the future. Still, the culture & societal discussion can influence where we focus. For example, in some cultures women don’t feel they have to start from the inside, so that is less common than here. In some cultures detachment & acceptance are the mainstream assumption, so they’re more common. Changing our cultural assumptions will help people move individually.
We can’t change the past. But we can learn how it affects us and, with grace, we can find ways to either heal or get past the wounds. Consciousness embraced can be a very liberating thing – there is almost no greater power to help a person suddenly change course as a reframe. A humerus example – Johnny Cash’s song “A Boy Named Sue” (“I came away with a different point of view”). This discussion is helping us have a different point of view.
I host a radio program called Spirit In Action on NorthernSpiritRadio.org that attempts to harness the energy of people working to heal the Earth, and you will surely find my guests providing good energy for moving forward as Andrew suggests. Many, many, tools for our tool box, and many inspirations for our hearts and minds.
Valid reflections Andrew.
Here are some of my reflections.
If we as you mention, indeed are part of a oneness, then the question arises, what is my part? How can I contribute to the spiritual dimension of evolution?
So first I have to accept that spiritual evolution is “a priori” to to any kind of evolution. Now I have done that, but it still leaves the question, how can I contribute to this evolution ?
So my next question is if there is a spiritual evolution what is the driving force behind it?
My answer to that question is: there must be a consciousness; a consciousness that is greater than the one I experience is this physical world.
The next question is, if there is a larger consciousness and there is a spiritual evolution, is there a “Plan”? And if there is a plan, can I access this plan? If not the whole plan, how about a portion of the plan.
Is the ” time for a spirituality that is fueled by an overwhelming sense of urgency” part of this plan.
It probably is. However the question is , how can I channel this urgency in a positive and constructive way without getting overwhelmed ?
My answer is to, through inner reflection, define what is “my purpose” in this world. What is my mission and would it fit into a larger plan for spiritual evolution.
I believe that, if each one of us would define a personal purpose and mission, based on our”rare capacities for empathy, tolerance and inclusivity” we will contribute significantly to the greater plan.
I am confident that whatever each one of us contribute is adequate and meaningful from this perspective.
Rohan ,I had a good laugh when I saw your Definition !
The laugh was an expression of recognition.
When I was writing my response to Andrew, I was wondering if I should include my definition. It is almost identical to yours. I guess the Universe prompt us in mysterious ways.
So here it is : E=MC pi
E stands for Energy, Life
M stands for Matter, Form Expression
C stands for Consciousness, Infinite Light
Pi is an unending number
The Pi is the significant difference as opposed to Einsteins definition, which is absolutely valid in the physical world, as well as C in Einsteins
being Physical light.
Spiritual consciousness is ever expanding.
I wonder if the scientists at CERN has recently touched on Infinite Light.
Interesting Lars
I like it
I had adapted my definition the other day too whilst contemplating it and as it happens it moves closer to yours in that
E energy Spirit of God
// particle/wave Soul of God
M mass Body of God
2 thought/feelings Movement of God
C light Mind of God
I have likened the 2 as the unending number and translated that the principle of movement. To think that together and individually we are all of it is awesome for me.
I imagine the guys at CERN will find something if not already
.. Maybe they will see infinite light and see themselves too. Happy New Year
The fact remains that the major structure of consciousness that has been in existence and identified with by the vast majority of humanity for thousands of years now is the EGO-RATIONAL MIND, and it is precisely this structure that puts that majority, or average-mode,only HALFWAY to Spirit. No matter what all-inclusive, utopian, “anti-hierarchy,” “pro-heterarchy” philosophies and theories that the ego-rational mind comes up with, it is still the EGO that is philosophizing and theorizing, and so therefore, that ego is creating a partial model that is only imagining it knows what Spirit is.
When Andrew mentions “spiritual dimensions,” he’s talking about those dimensions BEYOND THE EGO. The ego, while it was a good and necessary evolutionary development, is only a partial capacity of Spirit’s awakening, and those, like Andrew, are here to bear witness to the truly spiritual dimensions waiting in potential for humanity to engage and become. THE EGO MUST BE TRANSCENDED; ego is a capacity of gross-waking awareness, and when it’s transcended, here we enter the psychic and subtle dimensions that are the realm of the the subtle mind or SOUL. The ego-rational mind doesn’t “go anywhere,” it is negated and preserved, transcended and included, transformed with identification as the higher illumined mind, and this is all part of Spirit’s natural hierarchy or holarchy.
So when we think all things are “equal” in Spirit’s eyes, we are only half-right. Spirit is the magic, mythic-membership, egoic-rational, psychic, subtle, causal and nondual, expressions of Spirit, and Spirit desperately needs us to transcend the average-mode of the ego-rational identification for the sake of it’s continued evolution. Because Spirit needs us to be more conscious, then no, all things are not equal in Spirit’s eyes.
Happy New Year and Peace on Earth
HI Nada I wonder if it is only your own ego-rational mind that is making this comment although one that is trying to illuminate others about the necessity of an awakened spiritual consciousness.
For me and my path, consciousness is only part of Everything (or God if you wish to label it) as is the body. Paradoxically these are not reducible to Spirit but are integral components of Spirit, hence a heterarchy rather than a hierarchy.
Transcending the ego or human consciousness is a worthy endeavour and when one is successful in this endeavour different perceptions of ourselves unfold including the realisation that part of our identity is as Spirit. But to negate our human consciousness is also an attempt to negate that part of Spirit that has chosen to be human consciousness. This cannot be a loving action but one that is motivated by fear, whether out of seeking approval from others or an attempt to deny our chosen present incarnation.
Human consciousness and an awareness of Spirit is not an either or equation it is simply reflective of a journey along the continuum of consciousness or the Mind of God and as such each are indeliably inter-connected, such is the beauty of The Eveything or God or the Universe or the Cosmos depending on how you wish to name All That Is.
When you speak about Spirit I presume you are not acting as spokesman for all of Spirit since you can only really be speaking from the Spirit contained within you. As such your perspective and your perceptions coming from this perspective are yours and yours alone and as such I concur that you perceive that your part of Spirit fails to see equality in all things. However as I mentioned earlier, I suspect this is not truly your Spirit speaking but your human mind.
It is difficult to know of course whom among us has the last say on the matter and who has the authority to speak on behalf of All That Is but maybe someone out there does feel that that they truly are All That Is and so feel they have the authority to speak on behalf of EVERYTHING. Somehow though I doubt this life-form exists unless there is a totally integrated being that for all intent and purposes can be considered to be EVERYTHING and has a seperate identity to qualify this and so has supremacy to all the parts that it consists of – that beng the holarchy you mention, the ultimate form of hierarchy.
My experiences of my Spirit do not lead me to this conclusion at all but my experiences like everyone elses are always of a limited capacity but my sense of my Spirit is that it is a heterarchy although within it hierachies certainly do exist. If Spirit is heterarchically formed then Everything is both the creator and creation compared to if Spirit is hierarchically organised in which case our limited human powers of creativity have been bestowed upon us by an over-arching Supreme Being. Thus our free will is only limited to material consciousness so awakening is similarly limited to only being able to experience the bond or umbilical cord that connects us with the Supreme Being. This is a matter of belief and faith in my opinion and as I said more of a perception of human mind and one that has deep historical roots might I add. This is effectively the hierarchical God and one which can never truly be known since we are simply mere creations of it. From this point of view we or no human has the authority to speak on behalf of Spirit whatsoever since we can never really know it or be it being mere creations of it.
As I say this is not my experience. My experience is that Everything is Spirit but there is no centralised Supreme Being that has some over-riding authority over Everything. In this respect, the name God is simply a descriptor to describe Everything but it has no independent personality or identity of its own. From my point of view this is the awakening that you mention and one that realises that it is Everything both together and individually that comprises the totality and whilst this totality can be referred to with the name God it is simply a name not a personality. Maybe we are actually saying the same thing but in different ways.
The point is that a heterarchical God is decentralised but certainly with centralised aspects within it and so it is Everything together that is the Creator and the Creation which includes you, me, your friends your enemies. Everyone and everything is the creator and the creation. This means you, I, everyone and everything is equal in our identities as Spirit, as Matter and as Mind but as I say you can choose to perceive different parts of Everything as inequal if you so wish but for me simply because we express our Spirit, our Body and our Mind differently and with different capacities does not make me higher or lower than anything else that exists within The Everthing. Maybe you are meant to perceive a spiritual inequality for some reason if only to challenge me or anyone else who is awakened to the heterarchy of Everything.
So thanks for your challenging comments and wishing you a beautiful future in our project of co-creation. Nameste.
Golly gee Rohan, you sure are a long-winded fellow, aren’t you? I’ve read and reread your comments attempting to find a complimentary place to start, but because I find contradictions and confusion in your philosophy, ( is “all consciousness, is consciousness God, or is God part of consciousness?”), I feel continuing the focus on the value and meaning of Spirit’s hierarchy/holarchy (or heterarchy in your case) would perhaps be most beneficial.
First; Nondual realization, as the path of the Sage reveals to us, means
Emptiness and Form are Not-two, The Divine and Creation are Not-two, God and Goddess are Not-two, Eros and Agape are Not-two, Evolution and Involution are Not-two, Stillness and Movement are Not-two, etc…
The verbal referent “Not-two” means there is NO SUBJECT/OBJECT DUALITY in REALITY, and WISDOM is the direct apprehension of the Real or Reality, which is only ONE.
Subject/object duality emerges because the various levels of consciousness are identified with within the compound individual or self-system. The “levels” are not the “problem”, so to speak; a person’s identifications with a particular level are, and for now, the ego-rational mind is the current average mode of identification. But there are levels below it, which the individual transcended and included to create a base or foundation, and there are levels above it, attempting to pull the individual out of their current identification so that development can continue. ALWAYS AND ONLY IS THIS THE ACTIVITY OF SPIRIT, AS SPIRIT, ATTEMPTING TO BECOME MORE CONSCIOUS OF ITSELF IN AND THRU US, or as a nondual statement; Spirit as Levels of Consciousness and the Human’s identifications with the Levels of Consciousness are Not-two. Spirit is GOAL AND GROUND, always!
Each level is WHOLE in and of itself, but is also simultaneously a PART of the next greater Whole, which becomes part of the next whole, and on and on, AD INFINITUM, because THE INFINITE AND THE RELATIVE ARE NOT-TWO, or the Timeless and Time are Not-two.
For example; When you were born, you could not speak, you did not have verbal thoughts, but eventually, you learned language because you had the capacity already *enfolded* within you waiting as a potential. When you first began to make “ga-ga goo-goo” sounds, that potential was just beginning to *unfold*, and then the first formation of identifiable words emerged, because you were being taught and because you had the capacity as a human being to learn language. When you began to speak and communicate your needs to your parents, you could still say “ga-ga goo-goo”, but you probably didn’t, because the new linguistic “tool” at your disposal was being reinforced and conditioned into you as the appropriate method of communication. That is, “Mommy, may I have a cookie” replaced (transcended) ga-ga, but still included your capacity for saying “ga-ga.” In other words, ga-ga was NEGATED AND PRESERVED (you left the “preserved part off of your comment above, and made your point only on “negated,” which means you were focused on only PART of my comment in order to make YOUR point. This is not the way to communicate in an intersubjective space, Mr. Heterarchy! “Negation” is an oft used term synonymous with “transcendence.”)
So this is a simple and accurate real-time example of Spirit’s natural hierarchy enfolded within all. Identifying with “talking” transcended pre-verbal communication, becoming verbal communication, which is part of the ego-rational mind, and IF the verbal, or ego-rational mind is transcended, trans-verbal or Soul identification is the new level of identification, which is where the actual “spiritual dimensions” await.
The ego-rational level emerges around the age of seven. You can probably identify within yourself that your memories are much more clear and accurate than previous to that. Why? The ego-rational mind encompasses MORE of “reality” than pre-egoic stages; the ego is a SELF-CONSCIOUS stage, and one MUST become self-conscious before one can become SUPER-CONSCIOUS, (childhood is pre-conscious). And if you managed to transcend (and include) the ego, the Soul encompasses even MORE of “reality”; Soul identification is more creative, more compassionate, more wise,etc., because unlike the ego, the Soul is an identification that pierces the veil of illusory separation from the Godhead or Causal Ground of Being. The Soul is the capacity of SUBTLE KNOWLEDGE, and subtle knowledge is a necessary stage of development in order to identify with/as the Causal Ground of Being. Why is it necessary? Unless the self-system has been prepared for the BEAUTIFIC VISION of the Godhead, many things can go tragically wrong, such as psychosis or pathology.
But the Soul, too, is DUAL, it is a subtle separation from it’s own Primordial Ground, and it must be dissolved in/as that Ground for all separation to cease. This is Enlightenment, this is what the Sage knows, and this is what sets that level of consciousness as Ultimately, Divinely Aware as a level that is EXEMPLARY OF THE STATES AND STAGES OF CONSCIOUSNESS DEVELOPMENT, EXISTING ON SPIRIT’S NATURAL HIERARCHY/HOLARCHY. Nondual Realization is the Sage’s awareness/identity, the SUCHNESS of every moment…
And until you, or anyone, actually develops thru ALL the stages/levels of Spirit’s hierarchy, you’re just TRANSLATING “reality” according to your current identification, which according to the language you use and the general tone of your communication is a PERSONAL TRANSLATION desiring to be Transpersonal.
Well, enough for now, except to say that children are at the stage of PRE-PERSONAL development, emerging into personal development, but TRANS-PERSONAL DEVELOPMENT is where actual development occurs.
LOL(;}
Excuse me, I meant to say “actual spiritual, trans-personal level development occurs.”
Trying to make some sense of your holarchic explaination. If greater wholes are always emerging, then would not the sages of the past be looking at an historical whole compared to the whole we will now be looking at. Where is the non-dual aspect to this historical dialectism.
Also what evidence in Reality is there that everything is a composite whole that embraces all its parts. As far as I am aware the human organism for example is renewing itself every 7-10 years. Where are the parts coming from to enable this if it assumed that every type of organism is an integrated whole with its component parts.
Similarly how is planet Earth evolving holarchically to reflect the emegence of a greater Cosmic whole especially when considering that different people whether they are aware of it or not are trying to co-create contradictory ideals. Surely a belief in holarchy assumes that the emergence of greater wholes is automatic and so transpersonal as you suggest as per your hierachical model of spiritual development. How is this transpersonal activity manifesting itself here and now as the emergence of a greater whole.
Hi Rohan, The word is “Involution”, Spirit’s own emergence, or downward causation, into the universe and world, as the universe and world, though I prefer the word Kosmos. (Kosmos is the Interior that discloses that interior and exterior are not-two). As I said above; Spirit is the Goal and Ground of It’s own involution/evolution, only Spirit is the Ultimate Whole, and it is reaching for He/She/It’s own wholeness as the ascending levels of consciousness/awareness.
Here’s another hierarchy simplified, perhaps you’ve heard of it, the Perennial Philosophy; Matter, Body, Mind, Soul and Spirit;
Matter is the least aware level of Spirit/consciousness, Body is more aware, transcending/including Matter, Mind is more aware than Body, but transcending/including Body, Soul is more aware of Matter/Body/Mind, transcending/including them all, and Spirit is All, Existing As and Transcending and Including All. As each level is transcended/included, consciousness is expanding, becoming more embracing, unified and whole, more creative at the level of the “growing tip” or “leading edge” of consciousness itself, because Spirit IS that leading edge, and is trying to pull all the lower levels along and up into He/She/It. This is, of course, a matter of direct experiential disclosure as one’s own SELF, which is all things, and no-things, simultaneously.
The reason Spirit is the only Ultimate Whole is because Pure Spirit, while it chooses to manifest (Involution) and express itself in and as Time and Evolution, is The Timeless, Deathless, Unborn, Uncreate, Unmanifest Ground of All Being. Again, this can be, and has been disclosed to some Souls throughout human history. Every Sage is that ultimate expression of both the Ground and Stages of evolutionary unfolding, the ultimate expression of Eternity and Time.
Actual ULTIMATE TRANSFORMATION will eventually be obligated to create a TRANSLATION to express what Spirit has disclosed within/as the person. As an example, Andrew Cohen’s translation to others is Spirit’s expression in/through/as him, which is precisely what every person is experiencing as themselves, except Andrew has developed and become more aware of/as Spirit than the average mode, or ego, is capable of encompassing. He knows, as well as I do, that the ego-rational mind is a powerful sticking point, an intense identification that causes people to lash out in defensiveness and falseness. This is why one of his main efforts is to get people to communicate from a higher place than their egos, with their “Authentic Self” which is the Self that really cares about the Kosmos, because it is aligned with/as the Kosmos.
You and I know that human activity on planet Earth seems to be more detrimental than beneficial to it. Humans, as the most conscious beings on the planet, I’m sure you will agree, have to turn the tide on the destructive activity and find more, and the most, sustainable modes of co-living/creating. But without actual transformation out of the average mode or ego-rational mind identification, even “heterarchical” models will fail. The ego is a separate-self, a contraction away from more embracing involvement and responsibility, and perhaps “self-actualized” egos are most capable, but do you know how many people have even reached the growing tip of the ego capacity? A very small percentage of the world’s populations.
I must go for now but will address your other post later…
Hehe Nada a classic case of projection if you ask me. You accuse me of being long-winded and you accuse me of negating when you do the same yourself. To be honest I found it very difficult to follow your incoherent rambling and wasn’t sure how much of your critique relates to what I have said except to present an opposing argument relying on plagarised text.
As I said in my previous post, if you wish to believe in a Hierarchical Spirituality that is totally fine by me. Holarchy has no real basis in Reality but then I suspect that you believe that most of Reality is an illusion anyway.
I have heard the oft repeated argument supporting hierarchy and they make no real sense when deconstructed. For example how do you explain how a centralised function of creation relates to its creation. And how do explain how an aspect of this creation can have the authority to speak on behalf of this centralised function of creation. As I say your Spirit may or may not be guiding you towards a belief in hierarchy. Mine is certainly guiding me towards heterarchy
I have no problem with the developmental stages of human consciousness but not sure how this relates to the wisdom argument. Intuition for example is not dependent self-reflective consciousness.
As I point out
E energy/Spirit of Everything
//
M mass/Body of Everything
C2 light/Mind of Everything
which pretty much synthesises the non-dual/dual relationship.
Forgive me if you find my language use abit confusing. I am still developing my understanding and insights into Spirit or at least my Spirit. It is indeed quite a complicated affair but in short my Spirit manifests itself as a Body/Mind continuum. My Spirit and hence my Body and Mind are inherently organised heterarchically. This I know from the way I am organised and the way my external Reality is organised including the Cosmos. As I said, hierarchies do exist as do types of holarchy for example some individual galaxies can be seen to be holarchic in a fashion but I have never in my many experiences of Spirit known a centralised function within Reality which points towards an ultimate hierachy or ultimate holarchy. In fact quite the opposite, my experiences intuit that Spirit is not only the creator and creation simultanously (E=MC2) but there is no over-arching centralised function of creation. This means that Everything is created as a result of co-creation with different aspects of Spirit having chosen different functions and capacities. Amazingly this is mirrored in Naturewhich leads me to believe that our fellow life-forms are indeed intelligent and possibly more evolved than ourselves.
Of couse this, as I said earlier, is all a matter of opinion when comparing one person’s experiences with another. I feel when people communicate within a heterarchical frameworks then this facilitates a sharing but when people communicate within a hierarchical framework then this tends to facilitate competition which I am afraid I feel you are engaged in.
For this reason I could not work with you. So I suggest you remain with your hierarchically-based friends and collegues and co-create communities for yourself so you can be hierarchical with one another.
Happy co-creating.
Hi Nada .. I honestly don’t feel your words at all. There is no resonance of truth for me but obviously your words, your imperative, your expression of Spirit is valid for you. Objectifying your own subjective beliefs, insights and experiences does not create a picture of a warm loving relationship with Reality but a cold sterile and clinical exposition of how ‘so-called’ spiritual people are more advanced, more evolved, more equipped to determine the destiny of the rest.
I really appreciate that you have become softer but this hierarchical perspective of yours is to be honest with you an instant turn-off for the average person. Not because you are superior and they do not wish to acknowledge that or because you are wise and they do not wish to appear ignorant but because there is nothing of yourself in your words. Just judgements and more judgements in order to sustain some holier-than-thou perspective.
Your opinion about Spirit and its involution/evolution is nothing more than your experience of Spirit. For me there is no imperative that is driving me relentlessly to greater complexities of wholeness. I specifically asked you to provide me with some reality-based evidence to back up this involutionary process you describe. I am sorry to say this but I am beginning to doubt your ideas are grounded in any reality other than the one in your own imagination.
Also for what reason does your conception of Spirit wish to manifest itself at all if it timelsss, deathless, spaceless. It makes no sense whatsoever and to say this Spirit of yours chooses to manifest itself in order to involve. WHY?
I am afraid these hierarchical explanations do not provide any suitable answers at all and whilst I can just about acknowledge we are on the same side, as Andrew and other evolutionaries point out, we are looking for a new evolved way to view ourselves and a new evolved way of conceiving the sort of values we should be leading our lives by.
Your historicism is not looking towards the future but a perennial looking back to the past. Your models have not worked as well as expected and so now we wish to design, co-create, co-evolve new ones rather than procrastinate about the past.
Are you with us or not?
Rohan, Who are the “us” that I’m supposed to align myself with? Can you identify those “us” that set themselves apart from others?
You are espousing a HIERARCHY THAT DENIES HIERARCHY!!! I’ve not done that once, in fact, what I’ve been talking about is INCLUSION, while everything you’ve just stated is EXCLUSION!!! How ironic and hypocritical!
I didn’t once claim that anything I said was “my” theory” or “belief.” I honor the knowledge of the Saints and Sages, East and West alike; I honor the research of modern psychology and philosophy, yes…I take a historical, integral view, because I’m interested in connecting the fragmented, “flatland” reductionism of scientific materialism which is very much a part of the post-modern narcissistic perspective, including post-modern spirituality which believes, in ignorance I might add, that a return to the so-called “indigenous” ways of being and creating are “so wise” and interconnected. If pre-conscious natural heterarchies are so wise, why isn’t that still the average mode of consciousness? I’ll tell you why… Because Spirit EVOLVED out of pre-consciousness into self-consciousness!! IT HAD TO, BECAUSE SPIRIT’S GREATEST DESIRE IS TO BECOME MORE AWARE OF ITSELF THRU US!!!
You’re the one who wants to return to the past, Rohan!
You don’t possess the subtle discernment of your own motivations.
You choose a “heterarchy” as a value system because you’ve weighed and measured other options, consciously or unconsciously, and decided along a line of values, that “heterarchy” IS BETTER! Which means you’ve chosen heterarchy along a line of hierarchical values!!! And you don’t even recognize this as yourself!! You think heterarchy is BETTER than, say, fundamentalist religion or capitalistic endeavors, AND SO YOU’VE CHOSEN ALONG A HIERARCHICAL VALUE SYSTEM!!
Nobody’s twisting your arm forcing you to blog on this site, and no, I will not take a position or perspective that limits me to your idea. I didn’t once ask, “Are you with us or not?” I’m simply trying to counter your idea with more inclusive and contemporary knowledge so that anyone reading these comments can compare your quite identified opinion with more “spiritually scientific” research, which is probably why you think it is “cold.”
Learn to laugh at yourself, Rohan…that is the beginning of Wisdom
Peace (:}
Hello Rohan, One more discernment which I’m certain will bring clarity to the “hierarchy” conversation;
First; I have adopted and made foundational to my translation the brilliant insights of Ken Wilber’s “Integral Theory” and the teachings of Andrew Cohen’s “Evolutionary Enlightenment” because I find these to be the most accurate, coherent, comprehensive, inclusive, wise, compassionate, forward thinking and leading edge philosophies and teachings currently available; and because I have directly experienced and transformed thru the states and stages/levels of consciousness, have directly experienced the evolutionary impulse or Eros, and have directly experienced Agape or the Involutionary current, and have transformed/integrated Spirit in/as myself, as the Good, True and Beautiful of my own being and therefore, the Being of All.
That said; What you are clearly talking about is “dominator hierarchies” which do indeed oppress, and yes, we are in agreement that this needs to continue to change so that all can live in equal dignity…
but, what I’ve been talking about is Spirit’s natural hierarchy/holarchy, which, even though I’ve clearly stated that this hierarchy is interior stages of development that are increasingly embracing, moral, wise compassionate, committed, responsible, loving and freely expressing care of the world and Kosmos, you’ve clearly chosen to misread and misconstrue that meaning.
I urge you to read “Integral Theory” and open yourself to the most accurate/embracing perspective available.
The world needs morally developed exemplars, and one of Andrew Cohen’s main purposes in this world is to inspire individuals to develop into and embrace as themselves, the Authentic Self. Your heterarchical vision can only be realized through this Self.
You appear to be intelligent and caring enough to at least manage an initial look-see into ideas and philosophies beyond the mythologies of the past, if only you can give up your fear of anything “hierarchical”, perhaps you could even discern, that indeed, you are condemned to search for greater meaning, and that is also your innate drive(Eros) to transcendence and evolution.
Spirit’s Blessings,
Nada (:}
Hi Nada
.. I am still waitiing for reality-based examples of how holarchy manifests itself in the world beyond intellectual classifications of organisms. I put to you that your holarchic model is not an example of Spirit trying to become more aware of its through us as if Spirit has some over-arching control over All That Is but is infact a fragmented viewpoint that a selected group of individuals promote as a belief system.
It is abit beyond my comprehension why Spirit needs or requires to be more aware of itself unless it is the aspects of Spirit that resides within you or others that wishes to become more aware of itself. As I say this is a worthy spiritual endeavour if that is what a person wishes to do.
However there is no science that suggests that the energy field of Everything or Spirit has a personality or will of its own that is seperate or independent from the life-forms that exist within it. Similarly there is no examples in Nature which points towards Nature having a seperate identity or will of its own that is seperate or independent from the life-forms living within the boundaries of the Earth. If the holarchy theory was correct as a living process then this would be the case but it is not. As such holarchy is simply a way of intellectually classifying different groups of organisms and placing them into a ranked structure according to their perceived role and function. It is interesting how humans have tried to create holarchies in their own lives and how over history they have met their demise. In this respect hierarchical organisations are very much part of our past and our history and in more recent times organisations are experimenting with heterachy and with some good effects. This isn’t a value judgement about hierachies as such but a recognition that hierachies do and have their failings and tend not to be sustainable.
In defence of heterachy, science shows that our ecological systems are heterarchically organised and not in an intellectual way but a living way, science shows that systems of organisation that facilitate greater equality are more benefical to the populace and science shows that we exist within a quantum field which is heterarchically organised and provides the context in which we create our Realities.
Your claim that the promotion of heterarchy as a replacement to hierarchical systems is in itself a hierarchical endeavour is interesting. However this is not my argument. My argument is that Everything is already organised heterarchically and so to become more harmonious with All That Is it is necessary to align ourselves with heterarchical thinking. Consequently this is not a hierarchical shift but a matter of replacing our human-created hierarchies with naturally and cosmically-created heterarchies as evidenced in Nature and as can be discerned by looking deeply into the workings of the Cosmos.
Even our conversation is an example of heterarchy in that different aspects of Spirit are manifesting different mentalities and different physical expressions at different points in the network. What we are (and not trying to do) is build up relations of inter-connectedness between these different nodes. However when viewed through a hierarchical model these differences are ranked and valued according to their perceived merit whilst when viewed through a heterarchical model they are seen to be equal but different aspects of Everything.
My concern is that hierarchy tends to distort the beautiful diversity of Everything into an ugly competition between everything as evidenced in human history. So whilst I acknowledge you are trying to project your hierachical thinking on to me, I do not accept it. Similarly what do you actually mean and infer when you use the word average? Is the builder whose primary concern is construction of material objects and so provides us with the shelter we need any less or more important than the sage who can inform others about their ideas about Reality. Similarly is the farmer with their average consciousness any less important than the saint who can heal the sick. Are not all equally essential.
So when I say us I mean those who wish to see the re-organisation of societies so that everyone is deeply and equally appreciated as part of a deeply inter-connected and deeply inter-dependent system that does not value the activities of one part of the system as more or less important than another but values the inter-reliance between the different choices of activities. So rather than provide inequal rewards according to their ranked position, the system would tend to reward different activities more equally.
So far you have not contributed towards this post in terms of what spiritual values you might put in place in order to realise this nor have you questioned spiritual values per se except to dogmatise heterachical thinking. If you support hierarchical thinking that is fair enough but rather then attacking anything that deviates from your chosen beliefs why not enlighten us with your ideas about hierarchical spiritual values and how they can be utilised to create a better future for all.
For example you mention that Spirit is seeking to become more aware of itself. Are you suggesting that Spirit is seeking to embody a greater degree of hierarchy in the world of matter and mind as part of this yearning. If so, how is this yearning to be and become more hierarchical being and becoming translated into contemporary spiritual values?
Happy co-creating
Like I said, Rohan, why don’t you read Integral Theory…
You spend a lot of time inferring meaning from my comments that isn’t there and refuse to acknowledge the “more embracing, moral, wise, creative, etc. for the sake of the good of all”…
You used the words “more harmonious,” which means, something changed from being LESS harmonious to MORE harmonious. How does that happen, Rohan? To me your own language indicates that you acknowledge that something is naturally reaching to become something else, it’s not content with what it is, it desires transformation from less harmony to more harmony, there is more value with more harmony…
You mentioned the Chakras above in one of your comments; “root chakra to head chakra.” I don’t think you understand what they represent very well if you don’t recognize them as a hierarchy of ascending energy/awareness…The “Root” being least aware and the Crown and beyond being most aware and in Unity with All (Spirit).
In heterarchical/aboriginal cultures, the Shaman is the Seer, the Knower, the Magic Man, who takes care of the tribes harmony with nature. He or She is evidence that consciousness produced a growing tip or leading edge of knowledge, a knowledge of more depth, more embrace on a hierarchy of value, knowledge and depth. The Shaman had psychic and subtle vision, a vision that extends beyond and deeper into more embrace of “reality” than what gross reflecting awareness is capable of. Was the the Shaman a healer or an oppressor? Be honest now!
You see, you lack subtle knowledge of your own motivation, your ego agenda, to think that everything happens along a static line, and this is definitely NOT what nature offers up to the true discerning mind. If you rationalize your language use and attempt to make excuses that “more harmonious” doesn’t mean hierarchically “more”, you are making desperate, hermeneutical errors in an attempt to cover up your natural drive of hierarchical thinking, which essentially means, you’re manipulating language erroneously. How precisely is that harmonious and heterarchical? To any philosophical mind, that is the epitome of insanity!
Here’s another concrete example of natural hierarchy: Atoms become molecules become cells become organisms which become more and more complex life forms until the reptilian brain emerges, then limbic system, mammalian brain(emotional center), and complex triune brain or neocortex capable of language and intentional value systems (among many other things). All of these are WHOLES THAT EXIST IN OTHER WHOLES…Whole/Parts or HOLARCHY
The molecule transcends but includes atoms, cells transcend but include molecules, so on and so forth.
That is an undeniable natural hierarchy of nature, but does the molecule live any less harmonious than the the atom? NO…Does the cell live less harmonious than the atom and molecule? NO…it’s only the complexity of the human levels of consciousness that can decide to denature nature, to act upon nature, which means it’s only and always the drive to reach more complexity, more consciousness, that one finds CHOICE, and choices, as you well know, come in a vast array from self-damaging urges(like drug addiction and alcoholism), to the most embracing compassion and love, like Gandhi, Mother Theresa, Martin Luther King Jr. etc.
And I’m sure you’ll agree, a drug addict is less “harmonious” with nature than a civil activist trying to abolish prejudice. Why is that, Rohan? Why does one person’s Soul reach for unity/harmony with all things and another is determined to set the world on fire and watch it burn? Narcissism is less “harmonious” than selfless service; do we hope the narcissist becomes less so? Do we hope that they change and become less self-focused, less selfish? Be honest, Rohan! That is a VALUE JUDGEMENT that says narcissism if less harmonious…
Because ever-increasing complexity of Spirit’s evolutionary drive created the complex systems of humanity, when individual choice emerged as part of that system, exemplified with ego-rational mind, the human “split” off from your so-called harmony/heterarchy with/as nature, and then decided to act SUPERIOR to nature, and that is precisely where the ego-rational mind has been stuck for thousands of years. But the way to “more harmony” isn’t back, because it’s too late to return to subconsciousness; self-consciousness is the average mode of the majority of humans. The way to “more harmony” is forward, upward, out of the ego and into the soul which cares MORE about alleviating suffering and pain, MORE about living in harmony with nature, MORE about providing equality and dignity for ALL! NOT THE EGO, FRIEND! It cares less, and that is an indisputable fact…just look at the world around you. Choice is part of the Hierarchy of Being, you choose to make a judgement that denies it is doing so, and then point your finger at others and say “NO JUDGEMENTS!” That is insanity and ignorance of your own conditioned identification. You fear judgement and then deny that you are making value judgements. Get real about your fear and your drive to make value judgements, then we can have a real conversation…
Immanuel Kant; “Matter, which appears to be merely passive and without form and arrangement, has even in its simplest state an urge to fashion itself by a natural evolution into a MORE PERFECT CONSTITUTION.” (my caps)
Georg Hegel; “God does not remain petrified and dead; the very stones cry out and RAISE THEMSELVES TO SPIRIT.’ (my caps)
Hierarchical Values are unavoidable, friend! And heterarchy is a value choice!
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Your hierarchical exposition is interesting but as I said they merely point to classifications that you choose to transpose upon the naturally-created heterarchy. Not all atoms choose to become molecules, not all molecules choose to be cells, not all cells choose to become organisms, nor do all organisms choose to become mammals and nor do all mammals choose to become humans. If your hierarchical thesis was correct as a living process then one would witness this process scientifically. The truth is that different aspects of Everything choose to become different things as part of an overall network.
The root and the crown and the other five chakras (if one is working with the 7 chakra model) are indeliably inter-connected. Without one there cannot be the other. This infers a heterarchy – an energetic system that is networked. It is only your hierarchical inferences that chooses to view each chakra as seperated and a whole in its own right.
This is the same as your perception of Spirit – as an aspect of Everything that is seperated from Everything else due to its hierachical purity. Similarly your notion of ego or human consciousness is seen as something seperate to be transcended, to be neglected when in truth it is a chosen feature of our human experience. A heterarchical perspective sees the different levels as integral to a multi-dimensional existence. Each to be enjoyed for what it is.
More harmony as a result of adopting heterachical systems of organisation is an observation and is of potential use as a spiritual practice. Also within the context of this post it is also something that could be adopted as an adaption/survival strategy or in your language an evolutionary impulse. Therefore for me, rather than being a spiritual imperative, it is simply a way of describing the co-creation of additional survival strategies. I would not say it is an either/or, it is simply adding additional nodes to the network. As I say if you wish to continue living your life (and expressing your Spirit) in a hierarchical mode of thinking that is your choice. I have no judgement only a discernment that I would rather not myself.
This conversation does make me wonder to what extent other spiritually-inclined people desire to sustain hierarchies as a perceived solution to our current survival issues.
I agree, the Seer, Shaman, Sage, Healer is (usually) a worthwhile member of a commmunity as is the Cleaner, the Cook, the Builder, the Carpenter, the Mechanic, the Nurse, the Doctor etc etc
So far you have not contributed towards this post in terms of what evolved spiritual values you might put in place in relation to your evolutionary impulse towards hierarchical thinking. Why not enlighten us with your ideas about hierarchical spiritual values and how they can be utilised to create a better future for all.